Sam3 adding herbal to existing grass

[mixedfmr]

Sold it for years never had a problem

So is it just straifht red clover that would be a problem
ONLY EVER HAD MIXED LEYS THOUGH

 

[Hindsight]

Y

You are pretty much tied to the standard herbal ley species within the constraints of whichever scheme you are going for. The problem if aiming to maintain a modern high performance ryegrass/clover ley and managing it accordingly then alot of these herbs and legumes may struggle to survive in large quantities anyway so unless sown in large quantities then shouldn't alter much in the scheme of things.
Certainly chicory stands well mixed with ryegrass, plantain less so. In terms of herbs a bit of birds foot trefoil and small amounts of yarrow and Burnett is probably as good as you get for the scheme and will tick the boxes but will they really add much to your original ley when the fert spreader comes out?
These species are not really designed for the Sam3 overseeding option where fertiliser can be used they are more for a zero or low input situation and as such do very well as the NZ guys will testify in these situations.
To me the jury is out on their success on all but the best of land this far north but time will tell.

Isn't the reality folk are just interested in the £382ha. Performance of the herbal bit in the ley is irrelevant and from what I can see (as a non grass grower) the Ryegrass with 250 k N ha will simply swamp the herbs - but we shall have seeds invoices and a piccie or two of the Vaderstad cutting in the seed.

 

[mixedfmr]

Isn't the reality folk are just interested in the £382ha. Performance of the herbal bit in the ley is irrelevant and from what I can see (as a non grass grower) the Ryegrass with 250 k N ha will simply swamp the herbs - but we shall have seeds invoices and a piccie or two of the Vaderstad cutting in the seed.

I keep 7 ewes and lambs/ acre and do nt need that amount of N by 1/2 with a good clover mix
But of coarse the £ help to think our way around it. And there is nt a concrete prescription

 

[som farmer]

So is it just straifht red clover that would be a problem
ONLY EVER HAD MIXED LEYS THOUGH

grown straight red, for silage/dairy, good high protein stuff.

l think its something we really need to think about, growing high quality fodder. Stock prices are never brilliant, but cereals/proteins/energy prices fluctuate considerably, especially when stock prices 'improve'.

a lot of farmers growing diverse leys, seem pleased with them, as we are, a mix of plants is going to 'interesting' to cattle.

Whether the claims of worm control are correct, but l think the extra mineral claims are correct. But, the better your fodder, the better stock do, and the less concentrate you need to buy.

Alternative crops, especially rice this year with weather pattern changes, could well reduce costs. Not every farmer can grow different things, but many can, and we need to look with an open mind.

Clover, and N production is much quoted, what you don't hear, is a fact that unless your soil is in good health, it can take up to 4 years before full N production.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Best way is as a few have said a stiff of Roundup ,or do if after a realy heavy cut of silage ,how you put the seed on is pretty irrelevant, a Wagtail and Chain harrow would do it with a few passes ,the importance is controlling the Regrowth of the old grass

 

[Hfd Cattle]

We put a 20 acre herbal ley in at the one farm , was previously AB15, so we purchased relevant seed ( courtesy of @Derrick Hughes )
All I did was mow it and bale it up , put sheep on to graze down hard , scrat it over with time harrows and roll the seed in . It has come up very well and will be putting sheep on tomorrow.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Along with Adas we do a lot of trail work on the farm here.
One of last years trails was overseeding methods , simple broadcasting and 2 direct drills
I am happy to show anyone around in the spring, not much point now as the clovers and herbs are not realy showing

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Chicory establishes readily, but if it is allowed to go woody, that seems to be the end of it. Best suited to intensive grazing in my experience.

That shouldn't be too much of a problem as chicory reseeds itself in tha situation.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

This silage is 30 % Chicory
Cut it here 3 times a year

 

[serf]

When is the application period for these herbal and low input schemes ?
Twice year ?
Are they 12 months based or longer ?

 

[som farmer]

When is the application period for these herbal and low input schemes ?
Twice year ?
Are they 12 months based or longer ?

l think time will answer most questions, its all a bit 'new'.

sam3 is very 'lean' on the rules, apart from the seed mix, and a 5 week break, there doesn't appear to be many.

more relevant, is what do you want from the ley, other than the grant ? If, if, a lot of the claims are correct, and that's a big if, potentially there are huge benefits from them, produce enough N from clover, to negate the need to apply any, health benefits as wormers, or just the varied diet, minerals are brought up from 'deeper' is true, roots go down deeper than prg/clover. Definitely grow for longer, in a drought.

so either grow for the money, or grow to utilise.

 

[e3120]

That shouldn't be too much of a problem as chicory reseeds itself in tha situation.

Not that I've seen. The situation I'm describing is where (rotational) grazing is a couple of weeks behind in peak season, not where it's been left for months for fashionable, unproductive 'mob grazing'. I would consider it a grass management failure if anything was to set seed.

Due to this, in my high input/output system the chicory has all disappeared by year 3.

Tissue samples appear to confirm the roots hoover up useful minerals.

 

[anzani]

May I be permitted a laymans question? Would it not be feasible to drill a (3m?) band of herb mix into the previously existing grass at perhaps 15metre intervals , almost as if tramlines ? Maybe a plaid effect by cross drilling. Thereby achieving the required result. Hat on.

 

[som farmer]

Not that I've seen. The situation I'm describing is where (rotational) grazing is a couple of weeks behind in peak season, not where it's been left for months for fashionable, unproductive 'mob grazing'. I would consider it a grass management failure if anything was to set seed.

Due to this, in my high input/output system the chicory has all disappeared by year 3.

Tissue samples appear to confirm the roots hoover up useful minerals.

we started growing herbs, and other grasses, from a drought avoidance angle, not for subs.
,
having said that, the subs are of great interest now, we have 60+ acres already in.

we rotationally graze ours, not mob stocking, ours is a on/off system, with back fences etc. We do leave off grazing, far longer than we used to, with prg/clover leys, rotation 40 or more days. Residuals would make a plate meter cry.

so, feed much longer covers, but we seem to get away with doing that, we autumn calve our dairy, and we don't buffer feed all summer, unless absolutely needed, and rarely done. Our hol type cows give close to 9000 litres, nearly 4,000 from forage, so not low output.

plantain grows, self seeds all over here, in places has become the dominant plant, ideal, when grass stops, still something to graze. I haven't seen much sign of chicory self seeding.

but, hey ho, its a steep and interesting journey, growing what our fathers, and grandfathers classed as weeds !

 

[Derrick Hughes]

May I be permitted a laymans question? Would it not be feasible to drill a (3m?) band of herb mix into the previously existing grass at perhaps 15metre intervals , almost as if tramlines ? Maybe a plaid effect by cross drilling. Thereby achieving the required result. Hat on.

Why not drill the lot

 

[anzani]

Why not drill the lot

I refer you to the title and OP.
Comments address the problem of establishing ' herbs' into established competing grasses. My thoughts relate to the costs/potential losses through losing grass and failing to establish these 'herbs' that seem to scare some and offend others.
If it is so difficult to 'stitch-in' , why not take it to the other extreme, and plant just 'herbs' mix on 15% of the area, but distributed in bands.
It might be desirable to restrict grazing to strips across the field, or do the plaid. My observation of cattle grazed herbal leys is that rather than leaving the 'herbs', stock go and pick them out first.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I refer you to the title and OP.
Comments address the problem of establishing ' herbs' into established competing grasses. My thoughts relate to the costs/potential losses through losing grass and failing to establish these 'herbs' that seem to scare some and offend others.
If it is so difficult to 'stitch-in' , why not take it to the other extreme, and plant just 'herbs' mix on 15% of the area, but distributed in bands.
It might be desirable to restrict grazing to strips across the field, or do the plaid. My observation of cattle grazed herbal leys is that rather than leaving the 'herbs', stock go and pick them out first.

There are ways to do it that will work
If you just drill into an old ley and expect it to grow it won't,
Overeeding mixes are not that expensive
We've been doing trails here for years on overseeding , I know exactly why it fails
This was overseeded into an old sward late last summer , the grass was just starting to grow back , a few weeks later we turned a few lambs on it

 

[hally]

Along with Adas we do a lot of trail work on the farm here.
One of last years trails was overseeding methods , simple broadcasting and 2 direct drills
I am happy to show anyone around in the spring, not much point now as the clovers and herbs are not realy showing

What were the results out of curiosity?

 

[hally]

Sorry to revisit this thread but has anybody actually spoken to defra about their interpretation of the rules.
A lot in the seed industry very worried about the implementation of this scheme. For example you are told to establish and maintain a herbal ley, but if it establishes when over seeded ( a lot won't) but gets swamped out by the end of the first year must you reseed it immediately as clearly the ley hasn't been "maintained". Or if at the end of three years when inspected, there are not many herbs/legumes visible will we be asked to pay all the money back similar to other schemes such as the HLS.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Not that I've seen. The situation I'm describing is where (rotational) grazing is a couple of weeks behind in peak season, not where it's been left for months for fashionable, unproductive 'mob grazing'. I would consider it a grass management failure if anything was to set seed.

Due to this, in my high input/output system the chicory has all disappeared by year 3.

Tissue samples appear to confirm the roots hoover up useful minerals.

If it's gone woody though, as in your earlier post, then wouldn't it be flowering and seeding as well?