Seed cost!

[Brisel]

It's a good tool but I hope you've considered life without clothianidin. If we lose it - which is a distinct possibility.

 

[ollie989898]

It's a good tool but I hope you've considered life without clothianidin. If we lose it - which is a distinct possibility.

It'll be banned. I'd put money on it. The half life of the stuff in soil is like 300 days plus. The Americans have a molecule in play as a replacement, I cannot remember the active for the life of me.

 

[CORK]

It'll be banned. I'd put money on it. The half life of the stuff in soil is like 300 days plus. The Americans have a molecule in play as a replacement, I cannot remember the active for the life of me.

looks like it'll be banned alright. Which company has an alternative do you know?

Aphids always a big issue in southern Ireland too, Deter has almost become a standard here now.

 

[fudge]

Different mode of action on the seed treatment (neonicotinoid). That prolonged the effectiveness of the post emergence pyrethroids. The same applies for cereals. You need to understand that the chemicals are unrelated.

Ah pyrethroid resistance in aphids is impossible?

 

[Tractor Boy]

Ah pyrethroid resistance in aphids is impossible?

There is already pyrethroids resistance in aphids. Peach potato aphid and grain aphid already have a form of resistance to pyrethroids and as the grain aphid can be a vector of bydv there is already a potential risk of relying on post em pyrethroids to control it. The reason people still get ok control of bydv with a pyrethroids is because the main virus vecto is the bird cherry oat aphid and I don't think these have resistance yet.

 

[fudge]

Is the development of resistance a risk or a certainty? Is the speed of this process affected by the frequency of application?

 

[Brisel]

Ah pyrethroid resistance in aphids is impossible?

Unless I misread your earlier post you were suggesting that neonic seed dressings were part of the cause of resistance to insecticides. I never said there wasn't resistance to pyrethroids - as Tractor Boy rightly said, Myzus Persicae (Peach Potato) have been knock down resistant (pyrethroid), MACE (pirimicarb) & Cholinesterase (OP) resistant to contact sprays for years. Grain aphid kdr is a more recent development but is now widespread. In Africa & southern Europe widespread use of neonic sprays have now strated to creat resistance here too, though nothing is showing up here yet.

Deter/Cruiser/Modesto seed dressings are another tool for managing resistance by rotating the mode of action and removing the need for early post em foliar insecticides.

 

[fudge]

Aren't the modes of action the same in the sprays the same as the seed treatments?

 

[Brisel]

It depends on the spray. Biscaya is the only approved foliar neonic spray AFAIK. There are a couple more but not approved in osr & cereals yet.

 

[fudge]

But broadly deter has the same mode of action as mavrik and cypermethrin? If one has used deter should it be followed by biscaya or is spraying completely unnecessary?

 

[Brisel]

But broadly deter has the same mode of action as mavrik and cypermethrin? If one has used deter should it be followed by biscaya or is spraying completely unnecessary?

No, though my BASIS notes on the exact chemical pathway of each aren't available now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethroid
Carbamates/organophosphates https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1567830/

 

[fudge]

I see. So really deter should be followed by a pyrethroid where necessary?

 

[Brisel]

I see. So really deter should be followed by a pyrethroid where necessary?

If you drilled in early October with Deter dressing, in most years the seed treatment would cover you for 6 weeks until after aphid flights had stopped, usually around the end of the first week in November, then you'd never have to use pyrethroids at all except in odd mild years like 2015. If everyone did that we would have these insecticides for a lot longer instead of chucking them around regardless & wondering why we get resistance!

Of course this relies on our continued use of Deter...

 

[Zippy768]

I would not entertain drilling wheat without it now really, unless you are latituding instead. Not after the shenanigans we had down this way two years ago.

A LOT of the wheat I look after never sees any post-em treatment until Mid-March.

Why would you always use Deter on wheat unless it had latitude dressing? Purely because of the cost?
Got a small patch of 2nd wheat, 4th cereal, that I was considering not latitude dressing. Why would I use Deter.
Is it price that puts it down to a simple either/or

 

[Brisel]

Latitude and Deter are entirely different chemicals doing very different jobs. The only thing they have in common is the eye watering cost & anyone who considers applying both to wheat seed needs a slap IMHO. Second wheat should never be sown that early & you'll be doubling your seed costs anyway!

 

[Zippy768]

Latitude and Deter are entirely different chemicals doing very different jobs. The only thing they have in common is the eye watering cost & anyone who considers applying both to wheat seed needs a slap IMHO. Second wheat should never be sown that early & you'll be doubling your seed costs anyway!

Of course I understand they are entirely different jobs. And I personally would never apply both - crazy money. Just I don't see the either/or situation. If ollie989898 always put deter on why, because it has latitude instead, does the job of deter not become important.
I was considering not using latitude on my 4th cereal. If i choose not to, I won't need deter instead as I was happy not to have it when I was considering latitude dressing.

Not sure I explained my point very well

 

[fudge]

If you drilled in early October with Deter dressing, in most years the seed treatment would cover you for 6 weeks until after aphid flights had stopped, usually around the end of the first week in November, then you'd never have to use pyrethroids at all except in odd mild years like 2015. If everyone did that we would have these insecticides for a lot longer instead of chucking them around regardless & wondering why we get resistance!

Of course this relies on our continued use of Deter...

No I don't agree with that. Deter is a very costly option for us October drillers. Unless seed dressings are inherently less liable to promote resistance than a spray. But I cannot see why that would be.

 

[ollie989898]

At typical drilling rates, Deter does not add too much cost, certainly not for the majority of people here, who have to employ a spray contractor. There is no way I would get many Christmas cards having them pay a contractor to spray on a mere aphicide.

And the bulk of mine has traditionally been behind grass, drilled in September. Even the stuff behind maize is not that late, why take the risk of having BYDV in the crop?

Putting a dressing on the seed that protects the seedling and subsequent growth, to my mind, makes a lot more sense than putting pyrethroids across the countryside, given their toxicity to aquatic life and their questionable persistence in a crop.

It won't be for much longer anyway, someone will isolate the genes for BYDV resistance and put them into their variety and it will be a thing of the past.

 

[ollie989898]

Why would you always use Deter on wheat unless it had latitude dressing? Purely because of the cost?
Got a small patch of 2nd wheat, 4th cereal, that I was considering not latitude dressing. Why would I use Deter.
Is it price that puts it down to a simple either/or

It's entirely up to you. I have known people who will dress with Deter and Latitude, it depends on a lot of factors, cost is merely an additional cog to have in motion.

Use whatever works for you. We don't have much in the way of a P or K spend here and our N use is half of bugger all. I have chanced it without latitude several times, much depends on the soil type, background fertility and seed bed I would say.

That said, there are time I have had to use manganese, foliar feed and phosphites etc to save a crop's life merely because of the weather. In my honest opinion, the biggest yield threat in this region is wet weather and foliar disease.

 

[ollie989898]

Pyrethroids work by shutting down the sodium channels in nerve cells (the channels in the membranes that surround the axons). This is a fairly novel way of working for insecticides or nerve agents, which traditionally worked by interfering with neuro-transmitters that flood between nerve cells.

This mode of action differs to that of pyrethroids, although to be fair the mammalian toxicity of pyrethroids is very very weak.

I am not 100% sure but from what I have read both of these molecules are an entire order of magnitude less troublesome and persistent.