sheep abortion

[Northeastfarmer]

Do you have a history of Enzo? Or is this the warning before a potential storm next year ?

Do you get a storm with toxo?

 

[GTB]

Do you have a history of Enzo? Or is this the warning before a potential storm next year ?

We vaccinated the whole flock for enzo and toxo (and did the replacements for about four years after) following a mini abortion storm about 12 yrs ago when both were underlying. Once the whole flock had been done we decided to stop as it was both time consuming and expensive. Haven't done then for over five years and had no probs until now. Trouble is, all these vaccines don't come cheap and if you listened to everything the vet says you'd be spending more on vaccines than your lamb sales come to. My father used to call one vet in particular 'the vaccine salesman'!

 

[exmoor dave]

Do you get a storm with toxo?

We didn't,

Just the barren rate crept up to about 10% in the early flock.
Only ewes we actually had abort were about 5-10 of 30 wilts we'd bought in...... glad that wasn't multiplied up to full flock numbers

 

[exmoor dave]

We vaccinated the whole flock for enzo and toxo (and did the replacements for about four years after) following a mini abortion storm about 12 yrs ago when both were underlying. Once the whole flock had been done we decided to stop as it was both time consuming and expensive. Haven't done then for over five years and had no probs until now. Trouble is, all these vaccines don't come cheap and if you listened to everything the vet says you'd be spending more on vaccines than your lamb sales come to. My father used to call one vet in particular 'the vaccine salesman'!

Yeah that's so true...... then add all the money spent chasing mineral/ trace elements as well

 

[GTB]

Yeah that's so true...... then add all the money spent chasing mineral/ trace elements as well

When we vaccinated the whole flock (3000) for enzo and toxo the bill came to 12k !!!

 

[exmoor dave]

When we vaccinated the whole flock (3000) for enzo and toxo the bill came to 12k !!!

I could well believe it!

Costs over £1k to jab 250 replacements for toxo

 

[bovine]

My father used to call one vet in particular 'the vaccine salesman'!

It's called preventative medicine. If you'd seen some of the things I had then you'd see where we are coming from.

Enzootic builds up year on year. If you do nothing else I'd reconsider vaccinating for that.

You sometimes see toxo outbreaks but it can affect any stage of pregnancy so sometimes shows as too many empty sheep.

 

[bovine]

If we had injected we would have thought it had worked well but the abortions had stopped anyway.

This has been my experience in a lot of cases, but the people who injected are so damn sure that was what stopped the problem.

 

[GTB]

It's called preventative medicine. If you'd seen some of the things I had then you'd see where we are coming from.

Oh I get that, it's just the cost of all these vaccines that's mind boggling. By the time you've vaccinated for everything, treated for worms, fluke, scab, lice, lameness AND fed them for twelve months there's feck all money left in them.

 

[rancher]

We vaccinated the whole flock for enzo and toxo (and did the replacements for about four years after) following a mini abortion storm about 12 yrs ago when both were underlying. Once the whole flock had been done we decided to stop as it was both time consuming and expensive. Haven't done then for over five years and had no probs until now. Trouble is, all these vaccines don't come cheap and if you listened to everything the vet says you'd be spending more on vaccines than your lamb sales come to. My father used to call one vet in particular 'the vaccine salesman'!

I've a friend that I advise on various sheep management queries, The default answer i give when he asks about vaccination is ''wouldnt I be stupid to advise you not to vaccinate, and have you blaming me when you'd get a breakdown, make up your own bloody mind''
Your vet is probably too polite to say that, but he's in the same situation.....how can he guarantee an abortion free year when you ask him should you vaccinate and then you call him a vaccine salesman just because he doesn't want to be blamed for lamb losses, .
I suppose it depends on the losses you accept, some farmers spend nothing on their sheep and then sell the survivors. it'd be an easier life, less work etc

 

[rancher]

When we vaccinated the whole flock (3000) for enzo and toxo the bill came to 12k !!!

First Enzo storm here took 70+ lambs and we still had to buy the vaccine

 

[GTB]

I've a friend that I advise on various sheep management queries, The default answer i give when he asks about vaccination is ''wouldnt I be stupid to advise you not to vaccinate, and have you blaming me when you'd get a breakdown, make up your own bloody mind''
Your vet is probably too polite to say that, but he's in the same situation.....how can he guarantee an abortion free year when you ask him should you vaccinate and then you call him a vaccine salesman just because he doesn't want to be blamed for lamb losses, .
I suppose it depends on the losses you accept, some farmers spend nothing on their sheep and then sell the survivors. it'd be an easier life, less work etc

I take your point. The particular vet I'm thinking of was fairly fresh out of vet school and was very 'by the book'. The older vets, some of whom were also farmers took a far more practical approach, balancing the cost / benefit elements. I expect they also knew that very often not vaccinating would result in exactly the same outcome as spending hundreds or thousands on vaccines with no guaranteed reward.

 

[rancher]

I take your point. The particular vet I'm thinking of was fairly fresh out of vet school and was very 'by the book'. The older vets, some of whom were also farmers took a far more practical approach, balancing the cost / benefit elements. I expect they also knew that very often not vaccinating would result in exactly the same outcome as spending hundreds or thousands on vaccines with no guaranteed reward.

I wouldn't count vaccines a big expense, probably about €4 -5 /ewe here.
Our last QA inspector wouldn't accept we used so little antibiotics.......probably because we find prevention better than trying to cure.
One of the few advantages of being self employed I suppose,........ you can make your own decisions

 

[bovine]

I think one of the biggest problems we have trying to 'sell' preventative medicine is when we get it right nothing happens. You feel like you are spending money and seeing nothing and that's exactly what we want to happen. Lots of healthy lambs, grow quickly, minimal losses, minimal therapeutic treatments.

You don't see the toxo losses. You don't add up the enzootic aborted lambs. The sheep that keep dying from fluke and clostridial disease that's badly managed. The money spent on inappropriate mineral supplementation. The thin sheep from Johne's/OPA/MV etc.

 

[GTB]

I wouldn't count vaccines a big expense, probably about €4 -5 /ewe here.

It doesn't sound much until you multiply it by 2/3000 then it comes to thousands and I don't think you could vaccinate for enzo and toxo here for less that £7 per head then you have your clostridials, footvax etc etc etc.

 

[bovine]

It doesn't sound much until you multiply it by 2/3000 then it comes to thousands and I don't think you could vaccinate for enzo and toxo here for less that £7 per head then you have your clostridials, footvax etc etc etc.

The abortion vaccine is not every year.

 

[GTB]

I think one of the biggest problems we have trying to 'sell' preventative medicine is when we get it right nothing happens. You feel like you are spending money and seeing nothing and that's exactly what we want to happen. Lots of healthy lambs, grow quickly, minimal losses, minimal therapeutic treatments.

You don't see the toxo losses. You don't add up the enzootic aborted lambs. The sheep that keep dying from fluke and clostridial disease that's badly managed. The money spent on inappropriate mineral supplementation. The thin sheep from Johne's/OPA/MV etc.

I just think some vets are thinking more about the commission/profit on vaccine sales rather than the benefit to the flock and the owner?

 

[GTB]

The abortion vaccine is not every year.

No that's true but still a big item to do several hundred ewe lambs.

 

[bovine]

I just think some vets are thinking more about the commission/profit on vaccine sales rather than the benefit to the flock and the owner?

I disagree. I make far more money treating clinical disease than preventing it.

In all honesty if everyone took my advice and did everything right I'd have to sack half the vets as I couldn't afford to keep them. I'm currently selling Bravoxin and Footvax at cost +£1 per bottle as otherwise the trade is cheaper.

 

[exmoor dave]

I disagree. I make far more money treating clinical disease than preventing it.

In all honesty if everyone took my advice and did everything right I'd have to sack half the vets as I couldn't afford to keep them. I'm currently selling Bravoxin and Footvax at cost +£1 per bottle as otherwise the trade is cheaper.

That made me chuckle, that's very true!