Shocking Yields from direct drilled spring Beans

[shakerator]

if you leave muck on top rather than cultivate it in your losing ammonia to the atmosphere??

if you look on studies of this the losses can be huge

that said i reckon if it was mixed with pas100 compost it would stabalize it and adsorb a good deal of the ammonia.

if the manure is properly composted then great- but takes a lot of management and are there any nutrient losses from composting?

im sure leaving stuff on top is best...but just playing devils advocate

 

[SilliamWhale]

if you leave muck on top rather than cultivate it in your losing ammonia to the atmosphere??

if you look on studies of this the losses can be huge

that said i reckon if it was mixed with pas100 compost it would stabalize it and adsorb a good deal of the ammonia.

if the manure is properly composted then great- but takes a lot of management and are there any nutrient losses from composting?

im sure leaving stuff on top is best...but just playing devils advocate

All depends what it is. Also you arguably lose P efficiency by burying it. Never see anyone burying sheep or cattle sh!t after they've grazed it.

i see a lot more moss.
probably acidity

I don't think its quite as simple as acidity. I find moss comes and goes quite radically and I can't explain it as low overall soil ph but it could be fertiliser acidity leftover? I think when there is low soil cover in the winter its just filling its niche as a pioneer species in ecological succession, and we come along and speed that process up with a cwt of spring barley! Also underneath the moss the ground is lovely.

 

[dontknowanything]

Never see anyone burying sheep or cattle sh!t after they've grazed it.

.

Not a good argument. Just because cattle don't bury their poo doesn't mean it wouldn't be more efficient if they did.

Graze with cats?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Not a good argument. Just because cattle don't bury their poo doesn't mean it wouldn't be more efficient if they did.

Graze with cats?

Herding cats wouldn't be fun.

Actually in a pristine ecosystem animal poo wouldn't really hang around very long - it would probably get eaten pretty quickly by something (in days/hours probably) and so it would be cycled into the system pretty quickly. Which is possibly a reason why animals never really evolved to bury their faeces much (maybe some do who live in colonies etc.?)

But that said, should the ammonia tail wag the no till dog when the other benefits are substantial but may not happen to be as on message?

 

[Pedders]

I posted about this a few days ago (and about 120 posts!). Its problem is close row spacing, leading to almost no undisturbed soil.

its problem or its advantage ?

 

[shakerator]

All depends what it is. Also you arguably lose P efficiency by burying it. Never see anyone burying sheep or cattle sh!t after they've grazed it.




I don't think its quite as simple as acidity. I find moss comes and goes quite radically and I can't explain it as low overall soil ph but it could be fertiliser acidity leftover? I think when there is low soil cover in the winter its just filling its niche as a pioneer species in ecological succession, and we come along and speed that process up with a cwt of spring barley! Also underneath the moss the ground is lovely.

shite from in situ grazing is totally different from shite from intensive indoor systems, even with high carbon bedding.

ammonia is highly unstable, generally "polluting". pollution = energy losses

look at the "liquors" from AD plants.......you have to knife them in or else 80%++ losses, even in standing crops!! not good if your a worm or fungi but were growing hydroponically remember

leaving ammonia laden manures on top changes the economics of the job. how do you value the N, and over what period?

interested on the P theory.... have u seen any work on this??

ive generally found moss in wetter areas with poor drainage


going back to the economics of livestock manures..... they are certainly favourable if you have your own grazed stock enterprises....which we have argued is a pre requisite for cont. N/T. do you think that continuous annual cropping on poorly drained high clay soils without tillage is possible?

i would be interested to notill into some 10 year miscanthus land and see how the water retention dynamics on clay compare over a wet winter (BASE UK??)

 

[SilliamWhale]

shite from in situ grazing is totally different from shite from intensive indoor systems, even with high carbon bedding.

ammonia is highly unstable, generally "polluting". pollution = energy losses

look at the "liquors" from AD plants.......you have to knife them in or else 80%++ losses, even in standing crops!! not good if your a worm or fungi but were growing hydroponically remember

leaving ammonia laden manures on top changes the economics of the job. how do you value the N, and over what period?

interested on the P theory.... have u seen any work on this??

ive generally found moss in wetter areas with poor drainage


going back to the economics of livestock manures..... they are certainly favourable if you have your own grazed stock enterprises....which we have argued is a pre requisite for cont. N/T. do you think that continuous annual cropping on poorly drained high clay soils without tillage is possible?

i would be interested to notill into some 10 year miscanthus land and see how the water retention dynamics on clay compare over a wet winter (BASE UK??)

I haven't used intensive broiler stuff only FYM and organic chicken stuff (more strawy). I can't imagine ammonnia losses are amazing.

What about pig and cow slurry though? Plough it into grassland?

 

[dontknowanything]

its problem or its advantage ?

If you want a cultivator drill there are many options, we have one on the farm. I don't consider cultivating at drilling time to be a clever idea, as I think it is the worst possible time to stimulate weed seed germination.

 

[shakerator]

I haven't used intensive broiler stuff only FYM and organic chicken stuff (more strawy). I can't imagine ammonnia losses are amazing.

What about pig and cow slurry though? Plough it into grassland?

Probably not the losses on those products.

Slurry injectors???

Question : would a mature forest respond to ammonium nitrate application?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Probably not the losses on those products.

Slurry injectors???

I suppose to really know the answer you'd have to look at the data really well and consider the whole GHG arguments across the board and then compare it in a no till situation as well.

I can't really see grass farmers spreading a bit of straw and muck being exhorted to plough it in every year - they'd have no grass!

 

[martian]

If you want a cultivator drill there are many options, we have one on the farm. I don't consider cultivating at drilling time to be a clever idea, as I think it is the worst possible time to stimulate weed seed germination.

Unless you are drilling cover crops maybe?

 

[dontknowanything]

Unless you are drilling cover crops maybe?

Yes, not so bad then. Except you could be burying some weed seeds at a depth that will cause them to germinate later in the spring.

 

[martian]

Some of our covers are very slow out of the trap this summer, so once again I've been wondering about converting Kockerling to narrow points to use for this job. On the basis that a bit of mineralisation as well as weed chit wouldn't hurt when planting covers, this might work better than 750a, and also be better at getting underneath very fresh chopped straw and planting seed into actual soil. Bit late for this seaon...

 

[The_Swede]

Do you chaps use the MANNER software when making calculations re applied muck, compost, digestate etc?

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on the results it gives and any alternative options / views?

 

[Simon C]

A lot of you guys are saying your covers are slow to grow this year. Anyone given a thought to the fact that you have chopped straw and rain causing the acid problems we have talked about before? How do they compare to volunteer rape plants which are suffering the same weather but not the cereal straw?

 

[dontknowanything]

A lot of you guys are saying your covers are slow to grow this year. Anyone given a thought to the fact that you have chopped straw and rain causing the acid problems we have talked about before? How do they compare to volunteer rape plants which are suffering the same weather but not the cereal straw?

Ours are slow. Difficult to compare with OSR volunteers as they are 2-3 weeks older, and so had a lot higher soil temps to get going.

 

[martian]

A lot of you guys are saying your covers are slow to grow this year. Anyone given a thought to the fact that you have chopped straw and rain causing the acid problems we have talked about before? How do they compare to volunteer rape plants which are suffering the same weather but not the cereal straw?

Also slow where we've baled, in fact those are some of the worst performing. It's strange

 

[Andy Howard]

Also slow where we've baled, in fact those are some of the worst performing. It's strange

Weather has been cold and plants have been changing from seed to foliar energy which slows them up for a few days. See what they are like in week.

 

[Pedders]

If you want a cultivator drill there are many options, we have one on the farm. I don't consider cultivating at drilling time to be a clever idea, as I think it is the worst possible time to stimulate weed seed germination.

maybe but in my experience you get a more reliable stand with a tined drill than you do disc

 

[dontknowanything]

maybe but in my experience you get a more reliable stand with a tined drill than you do disc

That may be so. But the point was that the rows are too close, not that the tine is a bad idea