Soil Biology

[Brisel]

Plant diversity?
Always have clover, tried Plantain last year but it all died in its first winter......
Will revisit that though and open to options on grassland diversity if anyone has ideas of winter Hardy species?

@Great In Grass would be a good source of info on diversifying your sward.

How much annual rainfall do you get? If ZE3 is part of your postcode, I'm guessing that drought isn't one of your issues! What is your sodium index? Holding onto potassium isn't easy on sand with that kind of rainfall but you're looking in the right direction to improve soil CEC. Muriate of Potash won't be a good source of non leachable K in your climate unless you're prepared to apply it little and often. I can't think of a slow release form of K.

 

[scholland]

@Great In Grass would be a good source of info on diversifying your sward.

How much annual rainfall do you get? If ZE3 is part of your postcode, I'm guessing that drought isn't one of your issues! What is your sodium index? Holding onto potassium isn't easy on sand with that kind of rainfall but you're looking in the right direction to improve soil CEC. Muriate of Potash won't be a good source of non leachable K in your climate unless you're prepared to apply it little and often. I can't think of a slow release form of K.

Tried MOP and fibrophos and it doesn't raise indexes, I think little and often is required and where we can, foliar.
Rainfall isn't too bad about 1.2m. Salt and wind are the winter issues. Had high hopes for Plantain as there is plenty of older types of it in the road verges!

 

[Brisel]

I've managed to raise indices here on high pH soils but it has take a long time and some pretty high doses. I asked about sodium because you're near the coast and in a region with plenty of storms bringing salt inland. Some heavy clay growers in East Anglia would weep with 1.2m of rain each year

There's a synergy between sodium and potassium. In sugar beet (a salt tolerant crop), the two are nearly substitutable. Of course, what you're looking at with improving soil biology will make mineral recovery by the plants more efficient and maybe unlock unavailable minerals.

 

[scholland]

I've managed to raise indices here on high pH soils but it has take a long time and some pretty high doses. I asked about sodium because you're near the coast and in a region with plenty of storms bringing salt inland. Some heavy clay growers in East Anglia would weep with 1.2m of rain each year [emoji23]

There's a synergy between sodium and potassium. In sugar beet (a salt tolerant crop), the two are nearly substitutable. Of course, what you're looking at with improving soil biology will make mineral recovery by the plants more efficient and maybe unlock unavailable minerals.

Sodium I think is pretty mobile? Usually we test high and last years beet didn't need any added, interestingly this years results aren't high but we only got the first gales after I took the samples.
I did one total nutrient content soil analysis but I haven't studied it yet.

 

[Devon James]

Has anyone tried this product? Perhaps mixing it with liquid n.

 

[David_A]

Yes James, have tried similar stuff, supposed to improve uptake of applied nutrients and fungicides. At least that's my understanding. Not sure if the results are quantifiable. However such products do seem to be the backbone of the muck and mystery brigade. Learning how to use them properly will take time.
Some individuals claim that applied N rates can be cut by a third with not output loss with the addition of Humates.

 

[Devon James]

Yes James, have tried similar stuff, supposed to improve uptake of applied nutrients and fungicides. At least that's my understanding. Not sure if the results are quantifiable. However such products do seem to be the backbone of the muck and mystery brigade. Learning how to use them properly will take time.
Some individuals claim that applied N rates can be cut by a third with not output loss with the addition of Humates.

Thanks David. I think it was £££ when we asked. And as you say difficult to quantify. But as in some things in ag may have to go with it if you think it is the right thing.
Merry Christmas to you and hope to see you next year

 

[Devil's advocate]

Whilst I totally respect and admire the work you are all doing.

If it takes thousands of years for soil to be created and grazing stubble crops can cause erosion is it almost a lost cause. So that soil is almost always slowly been eroded.

I'm one of the few who think the laws preventing the removal of drystone walls and hedges plus set a side next to watercourses were a positive step.

Grants for drainage grants & lime might be better than the way some modulation money is been spent. Well under drained land would help prevent flooding and slow down erosion.

I'm sure our small fields surrounded by mostly drystone walls has done a great deal to save our soils. Having said all that I'd like to try direct drilling & cover crops.

 

[Yale]

Tried MOP and fibrophos and it doesn't raise indexes, I think little and often is required and where we can, foliar.
Rainfall isn't too bad about 1.2m. Salt and wind are the winter issues. Had high hopes for Plantain as there is plenty of older types of it in the road verges!

I've managed to raise indices here on high pH soils but it has take a long time and some pretty high doses. I asked about sodium because you're near the coast and in a region with plenty of storms bringing salt inland. Some heavy clay growers in East Anglia would weep with 1.2m of rain each year

There's a synergy between sodium and potassium. In sugar beet (a salt tolerant crop), the two are nearly substitutable. Of course, what you're looking at with improving soil biology will make mineral recovery by the plants more efficient and maybe unlock unavailable minerals.

Any joy with Kalfos?

It’s quite competitive on price however it’s being able to handle and spread it and if it actually works?

 

[neilo]

Any joy with Kalfos?

It’s quite competitive on price however it’s being able to handle and spread it and if it actually works?

It spread well enough but, as it’s such a fine material, you might apply a light dusting next door to, or over the whole town....

As to whether it ‘works’, I’m not convinced personally, but @Clive has spread a fair bit IIRC and presumably would have done some before and after testing?.

 

[Yale]

It spread well enough but, as it’s such a fine material, you might apply a light dusting next door to, or over the whole town....

As to whether it ‘works’, I’m not convinced personally, but @Clive has spread a fair bit IIRC and presumably would have done some before and after testing?.

I spread 75 tonne of Kalfos this last summer and I was just fishing to see whether anyone has on farm hard evidence of its advertised benefits.

The only anecdotal evidence so far is with the mild weather there seems to be good worm activity in some areas which were spread however maybe I am seeing because I am looking.

Perhaps it is more to do with its neutralising value improving ph.

To be honest I am not bothered if it takes 10 years for a slow release of its range of nutrients however it’s just knowing that it is actually doing something for the bother of spreading it.

 

[Yale]

Has anyone tried this product? Perhaps mixing it with liquid n. View attachment 749956

@Farmer Roy has experience with this type of product maybe?

 

[Brisel]

I spread 75 tonne of Kalfos this last summer and I was just fishing to see whether anyone has on farm hard evidence of its advertised benefits.

The only anecdotal evidence so far is with the mild weather there seems to be good worm activity in some areas which were spread however maybe I am seeing because I am looking.

Perhaps it is more to do with its neutralising value improving ph.

To be honest I am not bothered if it takes 10 years for a slow release of its range of nutrients however it’s just knowing that it is actually doing something for the bother of spreading it.

I can’t help with Kalfos as I have never used it but it is very similar to Fibrophos which has more research behind it. They are both priced to be competitive with bagged TSP and MOP plus have lots of other goodies for free like calcium & trace elements.

I’ve been using Fibrophos grades for the last 7 years at variable rates to boost soil P and K levels. I’m undergoing the 3rd round of SOYL testing at the moment and the few fields I have got results for are showing nice high indices from a product supposedly locked up quickly in my high pH chalk soils.

I’m busy today but if you could post a link to details of Kalfos including analysis and what standards these are measured against (I will smell a rat if the nutrients are expressed as being dissolved in citric acid), I’ll have a look for you.

 

[neilo]

I spread 75 tonne of Kalfos this last summer and I was just fishing to see whether anyone has on farm hard evidence of its advertised benefits.

The only anecdotal evidence so far is with the mild weather there seems to be good worm activity in some areas which were spread however maybe I am seeing because I am looking.

Perhaps it is more to do with its neutralising value improving ph.

To be honest I am not bothered if it takes 10 years for a slow release of its range of nutrients however it’s just knowing that it is actually doing something for the bother of spreading it.

I haven't used it since, and didn't see any great lift in pH. I've been using Fibrophos since though, which spreads a lot better as it's coarser.

Evidence seems to be thin on the ground. Good luck finding it.

 

[neilo]

I can’t help with Kalfos as I have never used it but it is very similar to Fibrophos which has more research behind it. They are both priced to be competitive with bagged TSP and MOP plus have lots of other goodies for free like calcium & trace elements.

Unless you have enough area to spread an artic load at once, the cost of Fibrophos creeps up. I have a lime man 3 miles up the road from me, that runs out with Unimog spreaders filled at base for most of us smaller farms locally. Cost comes in at £140/t (delivered and spread at 625 kg/ha). I reckon that comes in at roughly the same as 0:24:24 delivered, per kg of P&K. I would then have to spread that compound fert. As you say, the Fibrophos also contains a handful of useful TE's and Calcium, and should maintain pH (without helping to raise it), and being finer, will potentially distribute the P better.
I'm planning on using it on a 3-4 yr rotation on my grazing fields, instead of any other P&K.

I've some testing to do this winter, but I have one grazing field that was at index zero for P&K 2 years ago. It's had 625 kg/ha of Fibrophos for the last 2 years, in an attempt to lift it. It'll be interesting to see the effect, as only grazing has been removed. Previous tenant sublet it for maize and local dairy farm plastered it in slurry (and dock seeds) before drilling. The maize must have mined every last bit of potash out of it!

 

[Yale]

I can’t help with Kalfos as I have never used it but it is very similar to Fibrophos which has more research behind it. They are both priced to be competitive with bagged TSP and MOP plus have lots of other goodies for free like calcium & trace elements.

I’ve been using Fibrophos grades for the last 7 years at variable rates to boost soil P and K levels. I’m undergoing the 3rd round of SOYL testing at the moment and the few fields I have got results for are showing nice high indices from a product supposedly locked up quickly in my high pH chalk soils.

I’m busy today but if you could post a link to details of Kalfos including analysis and what standards these are measured against (I will smell a rat if the nutrients are expressed as being dissolved in citric acid), I’ll have a look for you.

https://kalfos.co.uk/technical-data/

 

[Richard III]

I can’t help with Kalfos as I have never used it but it is very similar to Fibrophos which has more research behind it. They are both priced to be competitive with bagged TSP and MOP plus have lots of other goodies for free like calcium & trace elements.

I’ve been using Fibrophos grades for the last 7 years at variable rates to boost soil P and K levels. I’m undergoing the 3rd round of SOYL testing at the moment and the few fields I have got results for are showing nice high indices from a product supposedly locked up quickly in my high pH chalk soils.

I’m busy today but if you could post a link to details of Kalfos including analysis and what standards these are measured against (I will smell a rat if the nutrients are expressed as being dissolved in citric acid), I’ll have a look for you.

"Unlike water-soluble TSP, the phosphate in KalFos is acid-soluble, meaning plant roots, as they exude acid, will be able to take up the phosphate, but it will not get washed off the field with heavy rainfall or flood conditions. When KalFos is applied to grass, the ideal timing is before a rain shower, but dewy conditions will also help FalFos work into the soil."

The above is lifted from their website, looks like it was written by a salesman to me?

 

[Brisel]

https://kalfos.co.uk/technical-data/

Thank you. Whilst the animal byproducts bit doesn't bother me if it is EA approved and Fibrophos is made the same way, the website tells me nothing other than it would not be appropriate for high pH calcareous soils as it would be at risk of lockup in the absence of acidity. I don't think this website is well written.

 

[neilo]

"Unlike water-soluble TSP, the phosphate in KalFos is acid-soluble, meaning plant roots, as they exude acid, will be able to take up the phosphate, but it will not get washed off the field with heavy rainfall or flood conditions. When KalFos is applied to grass, the ideal timing is before a rain shower, but dewy conditions will also help FalFos work into the soil."

The above is lifted from their website, looks like it was written by a salesman to me?

I would suggest that their marketing methods have always rung a few alarm bells. However, the product is effectively just incinerated meat & bone meal, so ‘should’ be a useful product. Fibrophos is only incinerated chicken sh*t after all, but is widely accepted as a useful fertiliser product.

 

[Yale]

Thank you. Whilst the animal byproducts bit doesn't bother me if it is EA approved and Fibrophos is made the same way, the website tells me nothing other than it would not be appropriate for high pH calcareous soils as it would be at risk of lockup in the absence of acidity. I don't think this website is well written.

Yes,you are correct.

Maybe it is deliberately vague,for a reason.

It was costing us £22 per tonne delivered and tipped so for that money I think I will stick with it and apply more.

We are in a high rainfall poor quality soil area so I’m sure on balance it will do some good.

It’s just no one seems to be able to quantify the good.

And it is a bitch to spread as it is so dusty.