Soil Samples P question

[ollie989898]

Ye d I agree with this, so if P and K are ok in plot for reseeding or forage crop just go in with N?

Yes, just go with N. If your slurry applications are anything like the ones I see then even the additional N is dubious.

 

[ollie989898]

I realise I'm a bit biased, but recommending no lime on a 5.9 seems a bit daft.

I always recommend a good 6.5 for grass. I know, you're thinking "well you would say that", but it will start to drop after the initial couple of ideal years. It depends on budget too. It's better to do something rather than nothing and let the situation get worse.

Is pig slurry high in P? Don't know what makes me think that??

If you can spare the grazing withdrawal period, can you get some sewage sludge injected? I have a customer who does that on heavy clay grassland and it works a treat.

Depends on the area, Pete. If it was 5.9 I would probably leave it unless cash flow and some other more severely low areas wanted doing at the same time IMO.

6.0 to 6.5 is ideal in my book.

The problem is that reseeding itself is an expensive job, adding lime in as well just adds to it.

I have customers who have good results from injecting a range of stuff, personally I don't think you can beat digestate.

 

[ollie989898]

DAP worked out a lot cheaper per unit of P for us last year. Basically got the N for free and then some. I don't think there is any difference in the quality of P between the two types, so use which ever is cheapest on a unit basis (rather than per tonne).

DAP has now become the most popular source of P worldwide, as its supposedly easier and quicker to manufacture than TSP, so should be cheaper, but this will depend on the supplier. I understand it is also used as the raw ingredient for most compound fertilizers rather than TSP nowadays.

Fair enough, TSP has normally been cheaper when I worked it out last, also where people are putting the stuff on on the autumn I would prefer them not to use any N as it will be wasted or potentially wasted.

 

[ollie989898]

Adding extra K is wasting money and likely to lead to high K values which increase the risk of staggers and milk fever. If you intend to spread muck or slurry in the future then that is higher in K as well so likely to create more of imbalance. I wouldn't be too up tight about the indices you have but I would go for some TSP on the index 1 land. Make sure you follow recommendations for your area/soils/cropping. We had the same issue on some heavy land, very high in Mg, but 0 and 1 for P. and a bit low on PH. Addressed pH first with lime and have been building the P gradually, make sure you make best use of slurry and manure, a good match with silage land which needs lots of K.

I agree about wasting K. A large proportion of my dairy clients do not need additional K due to slurry and so have not bought or used any for years.

Land that is away though, and that sees little or no muck, it a prime candidate for after cut type products where the K is replaced.

As you say though using lots of K in a grazing situation is expensive and potentially deadly. It is also likely that it is not needed anyway.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Depends on the area, Pete. If it was 5.9 I would probably leave it unless cash flow and some other more severely low areas wanted doing at the same time IMO.

6.0 to 6.5 is ideal in my book.

The problem is that reseeding itself is an expensive job, adding lime in as well just adds to it.

I have customers who have good results from injecting a range of stuff, personally I don't think you can beat digestate.

Reseeding is , as you say, an expensive job. I can't believe folks would not put a few pounds of lime on whilst spending £100/acre on the job, but then maybe people pay a lot more for lime in other areas.

 

[Joe]

Reseeding is , as you say, an expensive job. I can't believe folks would not put a few pounds of lime on whilst spending £100/acre on the job, but then maybe people pay a lot more for lime in other areas.

My thinking lime wise is hit lowest fields this year while in grass, then use middle fields for forage next year & back into grass following year with lime spread prior to forage going in.

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Any ideas for slow release P on permanent grassland. We used Basic Slag for years, then managed to get a granulated form of sewage sludge that was high in P. We have also used Fibrophos but I am not convinced it is good value.

TSP seems to disappear in an instant and I do not want to add any N as the clover content of the pastures is high.

Any thoughts you experts?

 

[gatepost]

Any ideas for slow release P on permanent grassland. We used Basic Slag for years, then managed to get a granulated form of sewage sludge that was high in P. We have also used Fibrophos but I am not convinced it is good value.

TSP seems to disappear in an instant and I do not want to add any N as the clover content of the pastures is high.

Any thoughts you experts?

No expert! I agree about Fibrophos though. have been having good results with some of the products sold by MV, in theory a bit more holistic but seems to work, although a bit painful price wise.

 

[Shep1]

When I think of it now all are fields beside the river are the ones with low P, which would have flooded regularly over past years until it was dredged last year - if flooding would cause an issue?

Sandy soils drop in P quick, as P is very mobile in soil water, so leaches away. If its beside a river it probably is sandy soil?

The problem is that reseeding itself is an expensive job, adding lime in as well just adds to it.

Lime is the cheapest fertiliser you can get. €23/t delivered and spread here. It would be complete madness around here to reseed without spreading lime. Sure the sod rotting down is going to reduce pH.

@Joe I would go use 23-10-0 or even 14-16. the 14-16 is only €10/t cheaper than 16% Super phosphate. I have similar soil fertility to you, and spread 23:10 last year. Seems to have made a difference

 

[mezz]

Any ideas for slow release P on permanent grassland. We used Basic Slag for years, then managed to get a granulated form of sewage sludge that was high in P. We have also used Fibrophos but I am not convinced it is good value.

TSP seems to disappear in an instant and I do not want to add any N as the clover content of the pastures is high.

Any thoughts you experts?

I'm no expert but I suspect it is more likely that the P is being locked up rather than leached, if the FibroPhos was working. Grassland Agro in Ireland was pushing a similar product called PhysAlg, to people who had a similar problem, which was protected P, to prevent being locked up, like FibroPhos it was an awful price.

The P is more likely to get locked up if the pH is either too high or too low. However recently I've been reading about the Albrecht soil test, which looks as base saturation. As I understand it, it matters whether you raise the pH with Magnesium or Calcium. So raising pH with Calcium still won't have the soil performing to its potential if Magnesium is required, although the pH reading will be correct and nutrients will be locked up as a result.

Spreading N in March/April apparently doesn't affect the Clover, as it isn't really growing then, however you're likely to have the same problem with DAP.

 

[Joe]

Sandy soils drop in P quick, as P is very mobile in soil water, so leaches away. If its beside a river it probably is sandy soil?




Lime is the cheapest fertiliser you can get. €23/t delivered and spread here. It would be complete madness around here to reseed without spreading lime. Sure the sod rotting down is going to reduce pH.

@Joe I would go use 23-10-0 or even 14-16. the 14-16 is only €10/t cheaper than 16% Super phosphate. I have similar soil fertility to you, and spread 23:10 last year. Seems to have made a difference

No besides the one Stoney plot not sandy, agree with lime even cheaper than that here think 19 euros spread. Quarry is close so they just load spreader and drive here.

Thinking might hit worst P fields with 23-10 and maybe leave one plot and see if any difference.

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Spreading N in March/April apparently doesn't affect the Clover, as it isn't really growing then, however you're likely to have the same problem with DAP.[/QUOTE]

It affects the Clover as the grass tends to out compete it especially the slower growing white clovers that we try to maintain.

 

[neilo]

good point, all index 2 bar one plot so Lime defo way to go I think to get into 3.

If you have indices of 2, and the land is grazing only, I wouldn't be too concerned about trying to lift it. You won't be removing much through grazing, so a maintenance dressing would suffice.

I'd love to have P indices of 2 and above, with pH's of 6.2, on all my ground.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Physalg is nothing like Fibrophos @mezz They are totally different products.

I had the Timac man over from France a few years ago trying to convince me to come on board and sell their products. I don't remember the exact figures but you wouldn't believe how much he was promising me.

In a nutshell, farmers were going to be ripped off good and proper. They may well still be.

I politely but firmly explained I would be no part of that.

 

[mezz]

Physalg is nothing like Fibrophos @mezz They are totally different products.

I had the Timac man over from France a few years ago trying to convince me to come on board and sell their products. I don't remember the exact figures but you wouldn't believe how much he was promising me.

In a nutshell, farmers were going to be ripped off good and proper. They may well still be.

I politely but firmly explained I would be no part of that.

Thanks for correcting me. Only just had a quick google of Fibrophos when I saw it mentioned above, as not heard of it before, obviously I misunderstood.

 

[ollie989898]

Don't get your pants in a twist about what form of P to put on. Sort your pH if required and get the stuff put on.

I only use fibrophos where I have a sizeable area to spread on to or it's not worth the bother. Works out cheaper and it possibly kinder to the soil chemistry but otherwise it is TSP or 0.24.24, makes no odds to me and plants don't care either.

Don't get wrapped around the axle with Albrecht either, it's muck and mystery stuff. There was a twit consultant around these parts some years back espousing the virtues of cation exchange balance and all the drot, made farmers spend loads, got no real results, never to be seen again.

Far too much nonsense talked about grass, there are folks who do nothing but bang on about grass and try to create loads of mystery from it. It's grass FFS, if I can grow maize or wheat in the same land without such confusion then it will grow grass fine. Biggest factor is moisture IMO, is it land that hangs wet or land that burns up? That determines how you are going to play it.

There is utterly no need to correct every field to a solid pH, so you got a field that is pH 5.9, fudge it, add it to the list another year. 5.5 would be more on my radar. You only have so much in the pocket to throw at grass annually, spent it where it counts.

Sort pH, Nitrogen and P and K and then you can think about sulphur once you have all the other ducks in a row.

 

[ollie989898]

Sandy soils drop in P quick, as P is very mobile in soil water, so leaches away. If its beside a river it probably is sandy soil?




Lime is the cheapest fertiliser you can get. €23/t delivered and spread here. It would be complete madness around here to reseed without spreading lime. Sure the sod rotting down is going to reduce pH.

@Joe I would go use 23-10-0 or even 14-16. the 14-16 is only €10/t cheaper than 16% Super phosphate. I have similar soil fertility to you, and spread 23:10 last year. Seems to have made a difference

Fine, carry on spending your money. But I'm not advising anyone to routinely lime ground for the hell of it. Not without a proper soil test in front of me I'm afraid. Same goes for P and K and even Nitrogen if needs be.

For too long men in Mondeos have told farmers to bang products on to land without any real regard for what the heck they are doing. All it did was enrich someone's pocket and it wasn't the farmers!

 

[mezz]

Don't get your pants in a twist about what form of P to put on. Sort your pH if required and get the stuff put on.

I only use fibrophos where I have a sizeable area to spread on to or it's not worth the bother. Works out cheaper and it possibly kinder to the soil chemistry but otherwise it is TSP or 0.24.24, makes no odds to me and plants don't care either.

Don't get wrapped around the axle with Albrecht either, it's muck and mystery stuff. There was a twit consultant around these parts some years back espousing the virtues of cation exchange balance and all the drot, made farmers spend loads, got no real results, never to be seen again.

Far too much nonsense talked about grass, there are folks who do nothing but bang on about grass and try to create loads of mystery from it. It's grass FFS, if I can grow maize or wheat in the same land without such confusion then it will grow grass fine. Biggest factor is moisture IMO, is it land that hangs wet or land that burns up? That determines how you are going to play it.

There is utterly no need to correct every field to a solid pH, so you got a field that is pH 5.9, fudge it, add it to the list another year. 5.5 would be more on my radar. You only have so much in the pocket to throw at grass annually, spent it where it counts.

Sort pH, Nitrogen and P and K and then you can think about sulphur once you have all the other ducks in a row.

Agree with you about spending the money where you get the most bang for your buck and getting it roughly right.

I don't know much about Albrecht, and usually deeply skeptical of stuff like this. Read a bit in the past, and then yesterday there was a video online of Will Armitage talking about it at the Oxford farming conference. He's a successful farmer and not a consultant, and the Albrecht system seems to be delivering real results for him. Just makes me think I'd like to know more about it, so I can either dismiss it completely or adopt it.

 

[Half Pipe]

Physalg is nothing like Fibrophos @mezz They are totally different products.

I had the Timac man over from France a few years ago trying to convince me to come on board and sell their products. I don't remember the exact figures but you wouldn't believe how much he was promising me.

In a nutshell, farmers were going to be ripped off good and proper. They may well still be.

I politely but firmly explained I would be no part of that.

I was told they pulled out of the UK fert market a few years ago

 

[Bury the Trash]

Is pig slurry high in P?

Not really.

Poultry muck is though and from layers would high calcium as well, win win.......