Stratification

[sherg]

Wondering what everyone else thinks of this age old system, just wondering if the people keeping composite breeds are happier with performance than they were with mules etc, I don't intend this to be a mule or blueface bashing thread i'm looking at our own aberdale ewes as well, sometimes I cant help but think if you put something really prolific on something not very prolific its a bit of a compromise as a ewe.
What do people think would we better off breeding composite sheep rather than hoping something 'clicks'?

 

[Woolless]

We would certainly be better breeding composite using a little commonsense and science, rather than a crossbred in which both halves of the equation are selected on cosmetic traits, with little selection on performance.

 

[Hesstondriver]

I cant help but think if you put something really prolific on something not very prolific its a bit of a compromise as a ewe.

Is that not the whole point of crossing, compromise on some items? some may be detrimental some may be very beneficial,?

 

[shearerlad]

I know this is off on a tangent from the OP but my view is that the way the stratified sheep industry works is benificial to the wider scheme of things

Sheep on the hills dont just provide a maternal hardy female line but keep shepherds and families in work therefore boosting rural econimies. Hill sheep are also the reason why the uplands look the way they do, which I think is important for the huge tourism industry.

 

[Johnny400]

Why isnt there a Mule composite?

 

[sherg]

Completely agree that the hills need sheep for the reasons you've mentioned, watched that hill farm programme tonight his welsh lambs were going to Portugal and Italy because they were out of spec for the supermarkets, made me think that if the n.z sheep industry is being pushed into the hills because of dairying and they can still meet uk supermarket spec then surely there is scope for the uk hills to do the same that would provide a far better income for hill farmers than selling lightweight lamb

 

[neilo]

I know this is off on a tangent from the OP but my view is that the way the stratified sheep industry works is benificial to the wider scheme of things

Sheep on the hills dont just provide a maternal hardy female line but keep shepherds and families in work therefore boosting rural econimies. Hill sheep are also the reason why the uplands look the way they do, which I think is important for the huge tourism industry.

Agree that the stratified system provides a useful income stream to hill flocks, but that doesn't mean that the resultant ewe is necessarily an ideal product.

On the OP, I think running a closed flock, allowing selection and improvement within the flock, is probably the most valuable advantage of most composite flocks.

 

[Jackson4]

My thoughts are known on the system... a system which seems to be stuck very much in tradition, farms all around me are mule breeders, i chose to sell fat lambs instead even though i have the same lie of the land, a 10th of the farm is high on the side of the moor but i run down into the valley bottom... this was seen to be something of a threat to locals, one old guy would say how you doing, come for a nose around then say "If i was you i'd keep mules...", half mule isnt good enough round here and many many more besides.

One of the things that got me thinking about the system was in my previous life when i would get around all the dales... i'd remember se.. well i actually still remember (alcohol) this time when i pulled up to a farm, and there were a long line of bfl tups all walking in a line, maybe 8 or 9, all of them were limping, some couldn't put their feet down! It made me think of walk like an egyptian, which is why i probably still remember it... not saying sheep wont get lame, mine are no different but i am going to be ruthless (my local neckcrooner cant understand this) anyway i thought were do all the offspring of these limping bfls and swaleys i'd seen go?? into a big auction mart and are bought by dealers who sell them all over the country to people who dont know were tey have come from!

The OP might have a good sized flock to select from, keep good records, cull any sheep on functional traits no matter how they look or what it would do to his income, but alot of little farms will struggle to make a living and every sheep, gimme lamb is money in the pocket. I feel its too varied, too many different farmers and farms... do they have the focus or energy to do what the breeding companies and enthused private breeders (hartlines, tims ws shedders, meatlincs etc) are doing. I suspect that britain will go the way of new zealand and australia etc. with maternal sheep breeds, especially when sfp starts to drop.

The mule has its better points and worse points, its ahead on some and behind on others and a functionally good one is a decent sheep... but i feel real progress in maternal breeding will happen quickest in large, closed flocks treated with a scientific eye, recording of all important traits and selected for on that basis. Just because one sheep can live on the moor and one is prolific doesn't mean the offspring has good growth of grass, low body maintanence costs, low labour cost on functional traits, low drug costs, good at delivering what the market wants, good meat yeild, high value carcass etc for me its all too disseminated. More and more people will be trying the kiwi pure bred sheep, private breeders like with the hartlines and composite sheep over mules. (and if they haven't done a good job we will all be going back to the mules with our tail between our legs)

 

[Global ovine]

Completely agree that the hills need sheep for the reasons you've mentioned, watched that hill farm programme tonight his welsh lambs were going to Portugal and Italy because they were out of spec for the supermarkets, made me think that if the n.z sheep industry is being pushed into the hills because of dairying and they can still meet uk supermarket spec then surely there is scope for the uk hills to do the same that would provide a far better income for hill farmers than selling lightweight lamb

The main reasons why NZ farmers can still meet UK supermarket specs yet do it off a greater proportion of hill country are;

• Farmers in almost all cases own their own land. They subdivide, fertilise and instigate grazing management to increase both per head and per hectare performance (land development has to occur in that order) by growing more and better pastures. Nobody is paid to retain an historical status quo.
• The main sheep breeds have undergone much genetic improvement for increasing productivity and reducing management costs. Half of the 86% improvement in performance per ewe over the last 20 years (that time includes all the dairy expansion onto the stronger lowland areas) can be put down exclusively to genetic improvement by scientifically based programmes. Some breeders doubled this rate with their flocks. The overall rate of improvement is increasing annually as commercial farmers vote with their cheque books encouraging progressive breeders.
• Commercial farmers being very aware of the key drivers of business growth.

 

[NZDan]

I think the stratified system is a great system. BUT it seems the biggest problem with it is the sheep going into it. The selection of hill breeds and crossing breeds seems, to me, to be based on nothing that resembles profit. Surely a hill breed should be selected for the ability to survive , thrive and produce a good number of marketable lambs. The crossing breed needs to be selected to not only produce a suitable cross bred ewe but also a cross bred wether.
Given the current main breeds what improvements could be made to existing hill sheep, and existing crossing breeds?

 

[Jackson4]

I think the stratified system is a great system. BUT it seems the biggest problem with it is the sheep going into it. The selection of hill breeds and crossing breeds seems, to me, to be based on nothing that resembles profit. Surely a hill breed should be selected for the ability to survive , thrive and produce a good number of marketable lambs. The crossing breed needs to be selected to not only produce a suitable cross bred ewe but also a cross bred wether.
Given the current main breeds what improvements could be made to existing hill sheep, and existing crossing breeds?

Do you have many swaldales, scottish blackface, welsh mountain etc in new zealand dan? If you do or dont why? Interested about all aspects of your system (if we could leave the dale we might have a hol out there.. great to get past whitby)

I dont mean to be insulting or generalise too much, but its been said before... by a kiwi i think?... that the sfp keeps and supports alot of systems which would be gone at the click of your fingers in nz, so i agree that if stratification was run in nz then the fact they are profitable without any support would seem that most have good genetics and select on the profitable maternal traits you want.... here there are many many smaller farms, keeping a few dozen sheep and selling tups every year (how much genetic progress are they making?) a few bigger farms selling tups on colour of there faces, bonny eyes, nice even horns, big strong legs like bulls legs etc..etc

 

[neilo]

a few bigger farms selling tups on colour of there faces, bonny eyes, nice even horns, big strong legs like bulls legs etc..etc

To be fair, they wouldn't be able to sell them if the demand wasn't there from purchasers. Any change has to come from the end customer, the lowland farmer.

 

[d.iainm]

as a hill crofter my aim to get to is to sell draft ewes, wedder lambs and ewe lambs to someone with better ground than me. I am very confident that my ewes would do well on better ground but they would not make very much at the mart as they are up against ewes that are on better ground and getting fed all winter. like neil says its the guy on the lowland farm that holds the power they need to reward the guys producing the kind of sheep that will do well for them. There are loads of crofters producing tups and its is the ewe with her head in the feed bag that produces the cracking tups.
I think the stratification system is one that can work well for all involved the dyke family on lambing live showed how it works well for them. As stated above when the sfp is going to land in your account anyway sheep that look good behind the house are more important than ones that make a profit

 

[sherg]

To be fair, they wouldn't be able to sell them if the demand wasn't there from purchasers. Any change has to come from the end customer, the lowland farmer.

In the past though has there been much of an alternative to first the halfbred and then the mule now you have got a similar idea with the likes of the aberdale.
Beyond breeds like the lleyn and composites like the highlander there isn't much choice for the lowland farmer or Lfa farmer wanting a highly prolific ewe

 

[spark_28]

In the past though has there been much of an alternative to first the halfbred and then the mule now you have got a similar idea with the likes of the aberdale.
Beyond breeds like the lleyn and composites like the highlander there isn't much choice for the lowland farmer or Lfa farmer wanting a highly prolific ewe

sheep we worked with in Canada were scanned at 248% and were very milky. they were a composite. wonder how they would do over here.

 

[NZDan]

sheep we worked with in Canada were scanned at 248% and were very milky. they were a composite. wonder how they would do over here.

Rideau Arcott?

 

[neilo]

sheep we worked with in Canada were scanned at 248% and were very milky. they were a composite. wonder how they would do over here.

There have been composites over here that have done similar things, but not been taken up widely for various reasons. Often it was because of bad (soft white) feet from the inclusion of the Milksheep in the cross for milkiness and the Finn for prolificacy (sorry Dan). ABRO's and Colbreds spring to mind.

The Cambridge is another UK composite, which will happily do 250% as a 'purebred', or add 1/2 a lamb to most crosses from a single infusion of genetics.

 

[NZDan]

In the past though has there been much of an alternative to first the halfbred and then the mule now you have got a similar idea with the likes of the aberdale.
Beyond breeds like the lleyn and composites like the highlander there isn't much choice for the lowland farmer or Lfa farmer wanting a highly prolific ewe

Taking the current crossing breeds, BFL, BL, Aberdale, Milksheep, Cambridge. What are there strenghts and weakness's, what needs to be improved on them?

 

[NZDan]

There have been composites over here that have done similar things, but not been taken up widely for various reasons. Often it was because of bad (soft white) feet from the inclusion of the Milksheep in the cross for milkiness and the Finn for prolificacy (sorry Dan). ABRO's and Colbreds spring to mind.

The Cambridge is another UK composite, which will happily do 250% as a 'purebred', or add 1/2 a lamb to most crosses from a single infusion of genetics.

I'm well aware of the feet on Finns, its taken me 15 years to get Footrot resistant Finns lol Interesting that the Cambridge and the Hartline/belcare which still has a high % of Finn has managed to avoid feet problems, perhaps the good/bad feet are more a reflection on the breeding programs rather than the breeds?
Why has the Cambridge not been more popular? It looks like a useful sheep.

 

[neilo]

I'm well aware of the feet on Finns, its taken me 15 years to get Footrot resistant Finns lol Interesting that the Cambridge and the Hartline/belcare which still has a high % of Finn has managed to avoid feet problems, perhaps the good/bad feet are more a reflection on the breeding programs rather than the breeds?
Why has the Cambridge not been more popular? It looks like a useful sheep.

We found that the Cambridge prolicacy was maintained even after many generations of outcrossing. Result was that we didn't need to buy many Cambridge rams. We had a flock of 7/8 & 15/16 Texels, bred up from Cambridge crosses, and selling 200% every year. Way too much Texel though, which meant we were pulling the majority of the lambs, even with that level of multiples. Most of my current Highlander flock are descended from those ewes.

Pure Cambridge are just a nightmare. We had about 50 (unregistered) at one time and usually scanned those at close to 300%. Lots of rats were the result, which eventually grew into fat docked lambs with poor loins (Clun influence maybe?). Texels were an obvious choice to correct those deficiencies.

There are quite a few people that have dabbled in Cambridge crosses when you talk to them, a lot of which aren't particularly negative about them.