Sustainable farming incentive details published today 2 December 2021

[ajd132]

1) Not once on here have I questioned or criticized how others choose to farm. Which puts me in a - very - small minority.

2) If ELMS ends up looking as I believe it should look, then our business will receive significantly less taxpayer money than it does today. Where the self interest is in that, i'm not sure.

3) I have tried, repeatedly, to get folks to share their views on what ELMS should look like.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/elms-co-design-submissions.339171/
To very limited success. You know why ? Because most folks on here have no interest in making constructive suggestions. They just want to engage in the farmers favourite past time of whingeing.

So, again, I accept no criticism of my posts or my views. Sorry about that.
You are all just p!ssed off because you have seen your DD sub go up in a puff of carbon.

The DD sub will be in the third tier

 

[Janet Hughes Defra]

Guidance that will need to tread a very difficult balance between being prescriptive enough and being too prescriptive...

Yes, exactly that

 

[topground]

When can we expect the details on the Lump Sum scheme @Janet Hughes Defra?

Will these be the details of the scheme or just a summary of the consultation?

These details were expected in October and now it is looking like they are going to be January at least 3 months late.

The lump sum route will likely be the way forward here where the scheme rewards revealed so far are not worth the hassle on an all grass holding. What happens if so many farmers take the lump sum that the mythical 70% uptake of the SFI and related schemes cannot be achieved?
The prospect of only being subject to scrutiny by enforcement agencies who ultimately have to prove their case in court if they think they have evidence that I have contravened the law of the land is rather more attractive than someone with a clipboard taking money off me because their interpretation of a scheme is different from mine.

 

[delilah]

The DD sub will be in the third tier

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Henarar]

One of the targets of ELMs is to build up SOM in soils to store more Carbon. Which can be achieved on all soils until they have reached their fully charged/ battery full status. Many Permanent Pastures are near to or are already at this status

Says who ?

 

[BenAdamsAgri]

@Janet Hughes Defra

If my rotation currently consists of:
30% AB15 legume fallow
20% SW6 overwinter cover followed by spring crop
50% winter wheat

Will all of these count towards my 70% green cover requirements for the introductory soils standard.

I am not worried about the intermediate standard due to claiming for the over winter covers already.
Thank you

 

[Two Tone]

Says who ?

It wouldn’t be right for me to tell you exactly who without having spoken to him first. However his colleague does post regularly on the forum and their company specialises in Soils and DD. They are experts on the subject. But have a living to make and I’m not going to give their secrets away for free.
All the Base farmers and followers on here will know exactly who I mean. I am sure they will also respect that the information that they hold and help us with must come at a cost and should not be banded about for nothing.

I have just Googled SOM and found 100 Google pages on the subject. Each page has 10 separate articles on SOM. I’d bet that somewhere amongst those 1,000 articles is an explanation as to how high SOM can go before it reaches its fully charged / battery full limit. But like most of us, I haven’t got time to read them all.

 

[Henarar]

It wouldn’t be right for me to tell you exactly who without having spoken to him first. However his colleague does post regularly on the forum and their company specialises in Soils and DD. They are experts on the subject. But have a living to make and I’m not going to give their secrets away for free.
All the Base farmers and followers on here will know exactly who I mean. I am sure they will also respect that the information that they hold and help us with must come at a cost and should not be banded about for nothing.

I have just Googled SOM and found 100 Google pages on the subject. Each page has 10 separate articles on SOM. I’d bet that somewhere amongst those 1,000 articles is an explanation as to how high SOM can go before it reaches its fully charged / battery full limit. But like most of us, I haven’t got time to read them all.

so when its "full" what happens if you lob a bit more on ?

 

[Phil P]

so when its "full" what happens if you lob a bit more on ?

It’s the carbon cycle, soil gets to a point where it’s releasing as much carbon as it’s absorbing and can’t “store” any more.

 

[AT Aloss]

It wouldn’t be right for me to tell you exactly who without having spoken to him first. However his colleague does post regularly on the forum and their company specialises in Soils and DD. They are experts on the subject. But have a living to make and I’m not going to give their secrets away for free.
All the Base farmers and followers on here will know exactly who I mean. I am sure they will also respect that the information that they hold and help us with must come at a cost and should not be banded about for nothing.

I have just Googled SOM and found 100 Google pages on the subject. Each page has 10 separate articles on SOM. I’d bet that somewhere amongst those 1,000 articles is an explanation as to how high SOM can go before it reaches its fully charged / battery full limit. But like most of us, I haven’t got time to read them all.

It’s the carbon cycle, soil gets to a point where it’s releasing as much carbon as it’s absorbing and can’t “store” any more.

Soil particulate carbon or the OM everyone is measuring, can oxidise when left on the surface or through cultivation creating CO2. However the process of building this nutrient cycling growing medium combined with reducing acid fertilisers, fungicides, insecticides & herbicides (especially those with anti bacterial properties), develops the perfect environment for bacteria & more importantly arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi to thrive, which can convert CO2 to soil mineral carbon which is considerably more dense & less prone to degradation than particulate carbon as long as it is not disturbed.

 

[Phil P]

Soil particulate carbon or the OM everyone is measuring, can oxidise when left on the surface or through cultivation creating CO2. However the process of building this nutrient cycling growing medium combined with reducing acid fertilisers, fungicides, insecticides & herbicides (especially those with anti bacterial properties), develops the perfect environment for bacteria & more importantly arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi to thrive, which can convert CO2 to soil mineral carbon which is considerably more dense & less prone to degradation than particulate carbon as long as it is not disturbed.

I’m not going to disagree that you can make soil but according to the scientists there is only a finite amount of carbon that soil can sequester and hold.

“Saturation: soils can only hold a finite amount of carbon; once they are saturated, societies will no longer be able to capture more carbon using soil carbon sequestration.”

This is why it is impossible for agriculture to reach net zero and still produce food with the available technology, even using re-gen methods.

 

[wanton dwarf]

so when its "full" what happens if you lob a bit more on ?

It's so funny to read some of these posts on here about Direct Drilling and organic matter. The soil isn't a battery, it's soil.

But the "Trap" they don't realise they are walking into is once they have lots of OM in their soils and there is a "Risk" that OM can create a "Climate Catastrophe" they will be banned from doing anything to risk the loss of all that CO2.

To respond to your question, it depends on what all that OM has created. If it's wildlife then you'll create more wildlife - lets just hope it's not root eating insects I guess ? Chaffer bug ?

If there are available resources then life will find a way of making use of them.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Depth of topsoil isn't a fixed measurement.

That's part of the point of this thread, to get more carbon into soil. You don't get to the point where soil won't take any more carbon. It builds it up.

 

[Henarar]

Depth of topsoil isn't a fixed measurement.

That's part of the point of this thread, to get more carbon into soil. You don't get to the point where soil won't take any more carbon. It builds it up.

till it falls over ?

 

[delilah]

That's part of the point of this thread, to get more carbon into soil.

In what way is it the point of the thread ? The thread is about the SFI standards. It has been made clear that payment of the money isn't connected to the results of your som tests.

 

[Phil P]

In what way is it the point of the thread ? The thread is about the SFI standards. It has been made clear that payment of the money isn't connected to the results of your som tests.

Not yet maybe! but why would you have to do this?

“Each year, soil structure, soil biology and soil organic matter (SOM) will be assessed on at least 20% of land entered into the standard. This will inform actions to maintain or improve soil structure.”

but how long before there’s a reduction in payment if there’s a reduced in SOM?

 

[delilah]

Not yet maybe! but why would you have to do this?

“Each year, soil structure, soil biology and soil organic matter (SOM) will be assessed on at least 20% of land entered into the standard. This will inform actions to maintain or improve soil structure.”

but how long before there’s a reduction in payment if there’s a reduced in SOM?

That suggests a deeper level of thought to all of this than has been applied. The reality is that they have accepted that subbing one form of crop establishment over others is untenable, so have thrown together a standard that anyone can apply for, but Government being Government they have felt obliged to add some strings just for the sake of it. There is no conspiracy in any of this, they are flailing around in a panic too much to come up with conspiracies.

 

[Jimdog1]

Depth of topsoil isn't a fixed measurement.

That's part of the point of this thread, to get more carbon into soil. You don't get to the point where soil won't take any more carbon. It builds it up.

You cannot solve the planets problems with your establishment methods. SFI will not be taken up by the multitude of smaller livestock farmers as it is too complicated, too restrictive and too time consuming. I have had enough of scheme's with rules made by people who have no idea about the vagaries of nature and the uncertainty of what a season may bring. Feel free to tie yourselves into knots - I will take my chances with the market.

 

[Phil P]

That suggests a deeper level of thought to all of this than has been applied. The reality is that they have accepted that subbing one form of crop establishment over others is untenable, so have thrown together a standard that anyone can apply for, but Government being Government they have felt obliged to add some strings just for the sake of it. There is no conspiracy in any of this, they are flailing around in a panic too much to come up with conspiracies.

Government being Government they will say one thing then do another and take any opportunity possibly to reduce your payment.

It may not happen in the first, second, or even third year to try and tie as many farmers in as possible but it will happen.

 

[delilah]

Government being Government they will say one thing then do another and take any opportunity possibly to reduce your payment.

It may not happen in the first, second, or even third year to try and tie as many farmers in as possible but it will happen.

The standards as they currently look wont be there by the third year.