T0

[Hjwise]

We’ve always used Atlantis type products early in the spring (once things start growing) when you get a chance to hit a dry leaf. Generally have good results.

 

[ollie989898]

My crops have already had two passes this spring and 2 in the autumn.

Does anyone know why Mn deficiency stop once the plant gets into mid stem extension?

Bigger plant with a better root structure will overcome more grief than a wussy one that is already low on fuel having come through the winter?

 

[Flat 10]

*If* it had rained then I'd probably put CCC in too. Usually use canopy at 0.4, but I do want rid of it this year and two doses at 0.3 gets the shed cleared!

Think locally everything gets 1lt CCC and 0.1 moddus at t0 and T1. Noone really want more than the bare minimum straw. And you don't pee about with the quantity of N we use for the yields.

In any case, moddus and CCC are stock items here so we can tweek on the day.

How much N out of interest? 240kgs?

 

[Flat 10]

We’ve always used Atlantis type products early in the spring (once things start growing) when you get a chance to hit a dry leaf. Generally have good results.

I did a field with hatra more in hope than expectation (W oats and BLWs additional targets) and I’ve been very impressed. Also very impressed with spring applied monolith last year with 0.3lib.

 

[Two Tone]

I've read that moddus is harsh on crops a lot on TFF. I was even told it at college as well and by agronomists around at the time. As a result once I was doing recommendations for myself I was very reticent and careful about using it.

I've never seen an issue with at at 0.1. I've even used it at 0.2 before.

I have no doubt it was expensive when it first came out but that wasn't the case back when I was using it. 3C was dirt cheap and 0.1 of moddus lookalike was similar money, too. I've never had a crop of wheat go flat but believe me I had situations where I could see it wanted to try. I reckon the average arable farmer would have a very different crops to the bulk of what I had to look at. How will a bit of herbicide now affect the growth and bulk of the crop in 3 weeks time when it is warm and the roots have sucked up the nitrogen you have applied? It's a bit late to be worrying about straw strength when it is already stood in front of you in my mind so a modest spend on 3C +/- is certainly justifiable.

I wouldn't describe atlantis or broadway as harsh either particularly, yes they slow the crop down but I wouldn't spray a crop that was visibly pished off to begin with.

I'm sure I have done broadway and 3C before.

Thanks for that, but my experiences here have been a little different. IMO, crops have got to be looking exceptionally good before I would consider adding Modus. Every time I have done so, yields have been reduced by at least a tonne/ha. Often allowing the less better Springtime looking crops to outyield the Modus treated crops.

When using Atlantis/ Pacifica/Hatra in the Spring, about a week later, it looks like we forgot to put any N on that crop and it takes 3 weeks before it gets all its colour back.
On top of which, results became very poor as regards BG control. It was almost like the BG became so resistant to it that the then stunted wheat let it have an even greater chance to become even more dominant.
This is what forced me to abandon Min-til and go fully back to ploughing. Using tall Wheat varieties and Hybrid Barleys also helped the need for using Atlantis completely.
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the tallness helps reduce the BG burden, which may account for some of the lower yields where Modus was used.

I have now got BG back under control enough to try absolute minimal disturbance Zero-til drilling. Which, because it doesn’t disturb the soil enough to release soil nutrients so easily early on, which in itself also acts as a PGR. Then, once you get to late April/early May, those crops seem to catch up with the conventionally drilled crops. I am already seeing this with my Hybrid Barley. But they certainly won’t be getting Modus.

I can understand why some Agronomists might think their Farmer’s might think they have failed if the crops they look after lodge. But I believe that too many PGR’s are being used unnecessarily, costing extra expenses and potential yield.
Some Farmers will override their advice and take the risk, whist others just do as they are told.

I too have never had lodged crops, other than they have been stampeded through by cattle - twice in the same field on one occasion! Which forced me to plough that field for the following crop and suddenly revealed to me again the dramatically increased effect on Blackgrass control that ploughing causes. Hence, the following year and the five after, everything was ploughed from then on until I became confident enough to try Zero-til.

 

[ollie989898]

Thanks for that, but my experiences here have been a little different. IMO, crops have got to be looking exceptionally good before I would consider adding Modus. Every time I have done so, yields have been reduced by at least a tonne/ha. Often allowing the less better Springtime looking crops to outyield the Modus treated crops.

When using Atlantis/ Pacifica/Hatra in the Spring, about a week later, it looks like we forgot to put any N on that crop and it takes 3 weeks before it gets all its colour back.
On top of which, results became very poor as regards BG control. It was almost like the BG became so resistant to it that the then stunted wheat let it have an even greater chance to become even more dominant.
This is what forced me to abandon Min-til and go fully back to ploughing. Using tall Wheat varieties and Hybrid Barleys also helped the need for using Atlantis completely.
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the tallness helps reduce the BG burden, which may account for some of the lower yields where Modus was used.

I have now got BG back under control enough to try absolute minimal disturbance Zero-til drilling. Which, because it doesn’t disturb the soil enough to release soil nutrients so easily early on, which in itself also acts as a PGR. Then, once you get to late April/early May, those crops seem to catch up with the conventionally drilled crops. I am already seeing this with my Hybrid Barley. But they certainly won’t be getting Modus.

I can understand why some Agronomists might think their Farmer’s might think they have failed if the crops they look after lodge. But I believe that too many PGR’s are being used unnecessarily, costing extra expenses and potential yield.
Some Farmers will override their advice and take the risk, whist others just do as they are told.

I too have never had lodged crops, other than they have been stampeded through by cattle - twice in the same field on one occasion! Which forced me to plough that field for the following crop and suddenly revealed to me again the dramatically increased effect on Blackgrass control that ploughing causes. Hence, the following year and the five after, everything was ploughed from then on until I became confident enough to try Zero-til.

What kind of background fertility would you have on your farm?

Around here virtually every acre I set foot on had cow muck, chicken muck or digestate on so deciding what N was actually needed was a bit of a lottery. I regularly had crops up to my thigh or worse but never had any lodge. I did have a few I was very glad to see go up a forager spout though before any heavy rain arrived.

If there was ever any yield loss involved for the crops I was looking at it was from problems with establishment, disease or just the weather.

 

[teslacoils]

How much N out of interest? 240kgs?

200kg of urea.
Full rate digestate.

So c220kg useful n.

 

[ajd132]

Thanks for that, but my experiences here have been a little different. IMO, crops have got to be looking exceptionally good before I would consider adding Modus. Every time I have done so, yields have been reduced by at least a tonne/ha. Often allowing the less better Springtime looking crops to outyield the Modus treated crops.

When using Atlantis/ Pacifica/Hatra in the Spring, about a week later, it looks like we forgot to put any N on that crop and it takes 3 weeks before it gets all its colour back.
On top of which, results became very poor as regards BG control. It was almost like the BG became so resistant to it that the then stunted wheat let it have an even greater chance to become even more dominant.
This is what forced me to abandon Min-til and go fully back to ploughing. Using tall Wheat varieties and Hybrid Barleys also helped the need for using Atlantis completely.
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the tallness helps reduce the BG burden, which may account for some of the lower yields where Modus was used.

I have now got BG back under control enough to try absolute minimal disturbance Zero-til drilling. Which, because it doesn’t disturb the soil enough to release soil nutrients so easily early on, which in itself also acts as a PGR. Then, once you get to late April/early May, those crops seem to catch up with the conventionally drilled crops. I am already seeing this with my Hybrid Barley. But they certainly won’t be getting Modus.

I can understand why some Agronomists might think their Farmer’s might think they have failed if the crops they look after lodge. But I believe that too many PGR’s are being used unnecessarily, costing extra expenses and potential yield.
Some Farmers will override their advice and take the risk, whist others just do as they are told.

I too have never had lodged crops, other than they have been stampeded through by cattle - twice in the same field on one occasion! Which forced me to plough that field for the following crop and suddenly revealed to me again the dramatically increased effect on Blackgrass control that ploughing causes. Hence, the following year and the five after, everything was ploughed from then on until I became confident enough to try Zero-til.

The amount of pgr’s I see getting used on spring cereals around here I find quite shocking. Same people repeatedly halving the height of spring oat crops and nearly killing them! And if you look at long term data on pgrs in spring barley they basically do nothing apart from maybe abit of canopy can help brackling.

 

[Two Tone]

What kind of background fertility would you have on your farm?

Around here virtually every acre I set foot on had cow muck, chicken muck or digestate on so deciding what N was actually needed was a bit of a lottery. I regularly had crops up to my thigh or worse but never had any lodge. I did have a few I was very glad to see go up a forager spout though before any heavy rain arrived.

If there was ever any yield loss involved for the crops I was looking at it was from problems with establishment, disease or just the weather.

A very good point. Yes, with all that sh!t being added to the ground where you are, you probably do need to be extra careful.
I was brought up in the Cambridgeshire Fens, where cereals were used as a break crop from Veg. Before the invention of Fungicides like the Bayletons and MBC’s, Fenland Wheats always yielded well. Since then, Non Fenland (Skirtlands) wheat crops could yield better. It appeared that the rich black peat Fenland soils were too rich to get the highest yields.
I have no idea if this is still true though.
What are your thoughts @Flat 10 ?

 

[Flat 10]

A very good point. Yes, with all that sh!t being added to the ground where you are, you probably do need to be extra careful.
I was brought up in the Cambridgeshire Fens, where cereals were used as a break crop from Veg. Before the invention of Fungicides like the Bayletons and MBC’s, Fenland Wheats always yielded well. Since then, Non Fenland (Skirtlands) wheat crops could yield better. It appeared that the rich black peat Fenland soils were too rich to get the highest yields.
I have no idea if this is still true though.
What are your thoughts @Flat 10 ?

I don’t have any fields of pure blank land anymore but my feeling is that ww is rarely that good on it tbh. Droughts out and gets mildew and trace element deficiency. My opinion is that it’s 8t/ha land in good years but as with all land it varies and others may be better at managing it @Sonoftheheir @Daniel

 

[Two Tone]

I don’t have any fields of pure blank land anymore but my feeling is that ww is rarely that good on it tbh. Droughts out and gets mildew and trace element deficiency. My opinion is that it’s 8t/ha land in good years but as with all land it varies and others may be better at managing it @Sonoftheheir @Daniel

When my family left the Fens and moved to the North Suffolk Beccles series clays in the 70’s, my Fenland cousins couldn’t believe that our wheats outyielded theirs!
Before those fungicides became popular, they would get 3t/acre and we would get 2t/ac. When they arrived, they also couldn’t believe how much spraying we did on cereals either. Mind you, their own sprayer had more important things to spray, than fungicides and Cycocel on wheat!

However, we were also Dairy farmers rotating grassland round the farm and with lots of FYM to spread too. But, by the time we got to the early 80’s, we would be getting 3.5 - 4t/acre and they were still stuck on 3.

Over here in the North Cotswolds (no brash though!) there is no doubt that the soils aren’t as fertile @ollie989898 . But we do have Beef cattle FYM to use. There just doesn’t seem to be enough of it though.

 

[Chae1]

200kg of urea.
Full rate digestate.

So c220kg useful n.

When applying digestate what %age of applied N through digestate do you budget on being available?

I realise it's a bit of a lottery.

It's my first year using digestate. Applied 24t/ha contains 6kg/t N.

 

[Two Tone]

200kg of urea.
Full rate digestate.

So c220kg useful n.

Blimey! If I use that much N, my yields go down. I’ve tried to use those levels several times and the yield drops every time. Max 180 here is about right. But this is probably because this land does not have the guts that yours does.

My neighbour, who we share farm with using a different Agronomist from me, put those sort of RB209 N levels on their land. But their yields aren’t as good as ours. And @ollie989898 , their crop do sometimes lodge despite using Modus and Terpal!
I’m the Combine driver who has to pick them up!

 

[ollie989898]

When applying digestate what %age of applied N through digestate do you budget on being available?

I realise it's a bit of a lottery.

It's my first year using digestate. Applied 24t/ha contains 6kg/t N.

The problem is that the numbers don't always translate to what happens in reality. I've seen this with chicken muck. The way the N becomes available can be surprising.

 

[ollie989898]

Blimey! If I use that much N, my yields go down. I’ve tried to use those levels several times and the yield drops every time. Max 180 here is about right. But this is probably because this land does not have the guts that yours does.

My neighbour, who we share farm with using a different Agronomist from me, put those sort of RB209 N levels on their land. But their yields aren’t as good as ours. And @ollie989898 , their crop do sometimes lodge despite using Modus and Terpal!
I’m the Combine driver who has to pick them up!

I have always been very very wary of RB209 levels of nitrogen, and in many cases the clients would be reluctant to use them anyway on grounds of cost.

I can count on one hand the number of times I have used terpal in wheat.

I preferred the most gentle little and often approach with 3C and the cheaper stuff.

 

[teslacoils]

When applying digestate what %age of applied N through digestate do you budget on being available?

I realise it's a bit of a lottery.

It's my first year using digestate. Applied 24t/ha contains 6kg/t N.

I work on 55 percent.

 

[teslacoils]

Blimey! If I use that much N, my yields go down. I’ve tried to use those levels several times and the yield drops every time. Max 180 here is about right. But this is probably because this land does not have the guts that yours does.

My neighbour, who we share farm with using a different Agronomist from me, put those sort of RB209 N levels on their land. But their yields aren’t as good as ours. And @ollie989898 , their crop do sometimes lodge despite using Modus and Terpal!
I’m the Combine driver who has to pick them up!

We routinely apply high doses of N, but are getting often 12t/ha of milling wheat. This year wheat is after oats, so hungry, and spent s lot of January under water. Efficiency will be lower. Crop is cold.

It may be I don't put any more n on this year. Crop is a 4th cereal. I'd be a fair bit lower on wheat after mucked grass.

Agronomist only has one instruction and that's keep the bugger stood. If you looked at it now you'd not say it was over lush at all. I don't think the urea has really got going at all yet. It certainly hasn't on the grass.

 

[ollie989898]

We routinely apply high doses of N, but are getting often 12t/ha of milling wheat. This year wheat is after oats, so hungry, and spent s lot of January under water. Efficiency will be lower. Crop is cold.

It may be I don't put any more n on this year. Crop is a 4th cereal. I'd be a fair bit lower on wheat after mucked grass.

Agronomist only has one instruction and that's keep the bugger stood. If you looked at it now you'd not say it was over lush at all. I don't think the urea has really got going at all yet. It certainly hasn't on the grass.

That is the thing.

Number of farms who thank you for saving £10/acre on PGR= 0.

Number of farmers who will kill you if anything goes flat= loads.

 

[Two Tone]

Some farmers aren’t interested. But most really ought to and do chat with their agronomist’s and vice versa about the risks and benefits of every input.
After all it is the farmer who is taking the most, if not all the risk, is it not?

Mine sits down with me before any final decisions are made as to what, when and how much we apply. Neither he nor I would be happy to do it any other way. I also decide what the final fertiliser rates to be used are on a field by field, sometimes part field basis.

I find enormous benefit by doing what I see as the most critical jobs of Drilling, Spraying, Fertiliser applications and Combining, which I am certain gives me the best way of seeing exactly what is happening with my crops.

It also helps that my agronomist and I are personal friends. We have had a lot of fun jointly entering and winning local competitions. We bounce all sorts of ideas off each other and truly work as a team. However, when the Buck stops with me here, I have to be the ultimate decision maker. The most important day of the year for any field is the day it is harvested. Guess where he mostly is on that day? Yield maps are great. But actually being there on that day gives us both a better chance of seeing why those maps are the colours they show.

 

[teslacoils]

My agronomist and I are not friends. I'm his customer. I pay him to advise how to maximise yields, and keep it up. He has no other constraints.