Tax Burden v Public Services

[Woolless]

Can anyone explain to me how we got to the situation where the tax burden is at the highest level for 70 years but our public services are in such a shocking state?

The NHS is a black hole for money, councils going bust left, right and centre, the judicial system creaking, armed forces now barely up to the job of defending the country etc etc. So where's the money going?? Covid must be partially to blame. However, the Tories seem to get off very light for imposing austerity but still squeezing ordinary folks hard (not their corporate and billionaire mates though, obviously).

 

[Danllan]

Can anyone explain to me how we got to the situation where the tax burden is at the highest level for 70 years but our public services are in such a shocking state?

The NHS is a black hole for money, councils going bust left, right and centre, the judicial system creaking, armed forces now barely up to the job of defending the country etc etc. So where's the money going?? Covid must be partially to blame. However, the Tories seem to get off very light for imposing austerity but still squeezing ordinary folks hard (not their corporate and billionaire mates though, obviously).

Large numbers of people receiving services for which neither they nor their parents have ever contributed, many from inside the UK many from outside.

Public money not being treated as carefully as those spending it treat their own. This goes for everything from defence procurement, through education, road repairs, 'construction' and health.

Loads of people being 'supported' by public money for reasons that wouldn't have been dreamt of thirty years ago. And loads of old people who paid their NI - well most of them did - and who made no other provision for their old age.

Just so we know... the average money per child per year in the UK education system is about £7.5k; the average child of an 'asylum seeker' in the UK cost over £25k pa to educate.

The average UK national costs the NHS £4.2k, anyone care to offer a figure as to what the average immigrant / asylum seeker from a third world country costs us?

Immigration can be of great benefit to the UK, unless targeted it generally isn't.

 

[Woolless]

Large numbers of people receiving services for which neither they nor their parents have ever contributed, many from inside the UK many from outside.

Public money not being treated as carefully as those spending it treat their own. This goes for everything from defence procurement, through education, road repairs, 'construction' and health.

Loads of people being 'supported' by public money for reasons that wouldn't have been dreamt of thirty years ago. And loads of old people who paid their NI - well most of them did - and who made no other provision for their old age.

Just so we know... the average money per child per year in the UK education system is about £7.5k; the average child of an 'asylum seeker' in the UK cost over £25k pa to educate.

The average UK national costs the NHS £4.2k, anyone care to offer a figure as to what the average immigrant / asylum seeker from a third world country costs us?

Immigration can be of great benefit to the UK, unless targeted it generally isn't.

IIRC The Tories were meant to be 'taking back control' which they have failed to do.

What is the figure for NHS spend on migrants?

 

[More to life]

Narrow thinking to blame our woes on immigrants, such tiny percentages of spending.

 

[caveman]

Narrow thinking to blame our woes on immigrants, such tiny percentages of spending.

I agree completely.
Such a great observation.
We haven't imported half enough immigrants yet to stop us sinking into a third world hole.
And neither is taxation high enough yet.
The pips really ain't squeaking for so many.
Chuck me a few crumbs instead of a reasonable portion of the cake my forebears baked. I'm content.

 

[essex man]

Can anyone explain to me how we got to the situation where the tax burden is at the highest level for 70 years but our public services are in such a shocking state?

The NHS is a black hole for money, councils going bust left, right and centre, the judicial system creaking, armed forces now barely up to the job of defending the country etc etc. So where's the money going?? Covid must be partially to blame. However, the Tories seem to get off very light for imposing austerity but still squeezing ordinary folks hard (not their corporate and billionaire mates though, obviously).

You've answered your own question?
Government, local or national is terribly bad at spending money.
Demographics are also another key problem.
The UK needs to import young people to prop up the tax base, we used to manufacture them here , like many other things , they are manufactured elsewhere now

 

[BrianV]

Large numbers of people receiving services for which neither they nor their parents have ever contributed, many from inside the UK many from outside.

Public money not being treated as carefully as those spending it treat their own. This goes for everything from defence procurement, through education, road repairs, 'construction' and health.

Loads of people being 'supported' by public money for reasons that wouldn't have been dreamt of thirty years ago. And loads of old people who paid their NI - well most of them did - and who made no other provision for their old age.

Just so we know... the average money per child per year in the UK education system is about £7.5k; the average child of an 'asylum seeker' in the UK cost over £25k pa to educate.

The average UK national costs the NHS £4.2k, anyone care to offer a figure as to what the average immigrant / asylum seeker from a third world country costs us?

Immigration can be of great benefit to the UK, unless targeted it generally isn't.

A direct result of Gorden Brown’s plan of putting as much of the UK as possible beholden to the state in one way or other to ensure continued Labour in power, A majority of the UK are now receiving benefits of one kind or other.

 

[Danllan]

Narrow thinking to blame our woes on immigrants, such tiny percentages of spending.

No, it isn't. It would be to blame mass immigration for all woes, and I didn't, but it certainly is directly responsible for many. Care to offer figures of what it costs the UK, or maybe you'd like to write of the massively disproportionate amount of crime - particularly violent crime - that immigrants commit. Or perhaps you won't address that, because you can't and stay fashionable.

But no! Let's ignore the inconvenient facts of the matter and, instead, go to The Refugee Council for some convenient ones, e.g. this bunch of arseheads tell us that 'Refugees make a huge contribution to the UK', and go on to tell us:

• About 1,200 medically qualified refugees are recorded on the British Medical Association’s database. It is estimated that it costs around £25,000 to support a refugee doctor to practise in the UK. Training a new doctor is estimated to cost between £200,000 and £250,000
• Children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country. This in turn enables more successful integration of families into local communities

The truth about asylum

You can rely on our facts and figures to get the true picture about the situation—and help spread the truth about asylum.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk

Let's look at these these claims. Firstly, they choose doctors as a point in case, ignoring all other refugees, you know, the scroungers, labourers, rapists etc.. But what proportion of refugees are doctors? That figure they give is the TOTAL number, not the number for January this year or for 2023, but so far in total. In 2019 the UK got 133k refugees, 2020 132k, 2021 137k, 2022 328k.* That's well over 700k for those four years alone, and means the doctors (who came over a much longer period) would make up less than one sixth of one percent of refugees in the UK, and these are MDs on the BMA database, not necessarily working in the NHS.

Is anyone going to suggest each one of these Docs is going to do enough and contribute enough to make up for even a tenth of the >600 other refugees for every one of them?

Now, just read that second claim... it just says that 'children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country' and offers nothing to prove this, not a word, number or even a one-off anecdote. They've written it, so we just have to accept it... f*ck off! What do they contribute, just by being there?

And the second part of that is drivel too, of course e.g. Afghans integrate successfully into Afghan communities, and Syrians into Syrian communities etc. etc. of course they bloody do - but how well do they integrate into the UK's society as whole? We all know what the answer is in the vast majority of cases.

And that's just 'refugees', we have hundreds of thousands of people who have come over from e.g. Pakistan, India, Nigeria etc. not via the asylum scam, but who also fail to integrate into the UK, but fit in perfectly in their own communities.

*https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/refugee-statistics

 

[Danllan]

A direct result of Gorden Brown’s plan of putting as much of the UK as possible beholden to the state in one way or other to ensure continued Labour in power, A majority of the UK are now receiving benefits of one kind or other.

I know that in Scotland, tax payers are in a minority, I do not know if that is the same for the rest of the UK.

 

[BrianV]

I know that in Scotland, tax payers are in a minority, I do not know if that is the same for the rest of the UK.

Chap I know on disability benefit gets notified every two years to be told he's entitled to a brand new car from the state which he obviously takes advantage of, who wouldn't, then multiply that by the country & you wonder why this country is in trouble.

Getting a Motability car​

getting-a-motability-car

 

[essex man]

No, it isn't. It would be to blame mass immigration for all woes, and I didn't, but it certainly is directly responsible for many. Care to offer figures of what it costs the UK, or maybe you'd like to write of the massively disproportionate amount of crime - particularly violent crime - that immigrants commit. Or perhaps you won't address that, because you can't and stay fashionable.

But no! Let's ignore the inconvenient facts of the matter and, instead, go to The Refugee Council for some convenient ones, e.g. this bunch of arseheads tell us that 'Refugees make a huge contribution to the UK', and go on to tell us:

• About 1,200 medically qualified refugees are recorded on the British Medical Association’s database. It is estimated that it costs around £25,000 to support a refugee doctor to practise in the UK. Training a new doctor is estimated to cost between £200,000 and £250,000
• Children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country. This in turn enables more successful integration of families into local communities

The truth about asylum

You can rely on our facts and figures to get the true picture about the situation—and help spread the truth about asylum.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk

Let's look at these these claims. Firstly, they choose doctors as a point in case, ignoring all other refugees, you know, the scroungers, labourers, rapists etc.. But what proportion of refugees are doctors? That figure they give is the TOTAL number, not the number for January this year or for 2023, but so far in total. In 2019 the UK got 133k refugees, 2020 132k, 2021 137k, 2022 328k.* That's well over 700k for those four years alone, and means the doctors (who came over a much longer period) would make up less than one sixth of one percent of refugees in the UK, and these are MDs on the BMA database, not necessarily working in the NHS.

Is anyone going to suggest each one of these Docs is going to do enough and contribute enough to make up for even a tenth of the >600 other refugees for every one of them?

Now, just read that second claim... it just says that 'children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country' and offers nothing to prove this, not a word, number or even a one-off anecdote. They've written it, so we just have to accept it... f*ck off! What do they contribute, just by being there?

And the second part of that is drivel too, of course e.g. Afghans integrate successfully into Afghan communities, and Syrians into Syrian communities etc. etc. of course they bloody do - but how well do they integrate into the UK's society as whole? We all know what the answer is in the vast majority of cases.

And that's just 'refugees', we have hundreds of thousands of people who have come over from e.g. Pakistan, India, Nigeria etc. not via the asylum scam, but who also fail to integrate into the UK, but fit in perfectly in their own communities.

*https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/refugee-statistics

No, it isn't. It would be to blame mass immigration for all woes, and I didn't, but it certainly is directly responsible for many. Care to offer figures of what it costs the UK, or maybe you'd like to write of the massively disproportionate amount of crime - particularly violent crime - that immigrants commit. Or perhaps you won't address that, because you can't and stay fashionable.

But no! Let's ignore the inconvenient facts of the matter and, instead, go to The Refugee Council for some convenient ones, e.g. this bunch of arseheads tell us that 'Refugees make a huge contribution to the UK', and go on to tell us:

• About 1,200 medically qualified refugees are recorded on the British Medical Association’s database. It is estimated that it costs around £25,000 to support a refugee doctor to practise in the UK. Training a new doctor is estimated to cost between £200,000 and £250,000
• Children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country. This in turn enables more successful integration of families into local communities

The truth about asylum

You can rely on our facts and figures to get the true picture about the situation—and help spread the truth about asylum.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk

Let's look at these these claims. Firstly, they choose doctors as a point in case, ignoring all other refugees, you know, the scroungers, labourers, rapists etc.. But what proportion of refugees are doctors? That figure they give is the TOTAL number, not the number for January this year or for 2023, but so far in total. In 2019 the UK got 133k refugees, 2020 132k, 2021 137k, 2022 328k.* That's well over 700k for those four years alone, and means the doctors (who came over a much longer period) would make up less than one sixth of one percent of refugees in the UK, and these are MDs on the BMA database, not necessarily working in the NHS.

Is anyone going to suggest each one of these Docs is going to do enough and contribute enough to make up for even a tenth of the >600 other refugees for every one of them?

Now, just read that second claim... it just says that 'children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country' and offers nothing to prove this, not a word, number or even a one-off anecdote. They've written it, so we just have to accept it... f*ck off! What do they contribute, just by being there?

And the second part of that is drivel too, of course e.g. Afghans integrate successfully into Afghan communities, and Syrians into Syrian communities etc. etc. of course they bloody do - but how well do they integrate into the UK's society as whole? We all know what the answer is in the vast majority of cases.

And that's just 'refugees', we have hundreds of thousands of people who have come over from e.g. Pakistan, India, Nigeria etc. not via the asylum scam, but who also fail to integrate into the UK, but fit in perfectly in their own communities.

*https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/refugee-statistics

Isn't the 2022 figure distorted by a one off influx of 200k Ukrainians?

 

[Swarfmonkey]

I know that in Scotland, tax payers are in a minority, I do not know if that is the same for the rest of the UK.

Yes, it's the same for the rest of the UK - more net beneficiaries of the tax system than net contributors. 60% to 40% of the population, respectively (ONS figures)

 

[Hindsight]

Chap I know on disability benefit gets notified every two years to be told he's entitled to a brand new car from the state which he obviously takes advantage of, who wouldn't, then multiply that by the country & you wonder why this country is in trouble.

Getting a Motability car​

getting-a-motability-car

Suppose if you ran a car dealership not a farm you might think it a good idea? Maybe its comparator are all these Defra webinars explaining SFI encouraging farmers to take up the SFI entitlement. Be less tax required if farmers didn't take up SFI. So its irritating to the taxpayer Defra seems to be promoting uptake?

 

[HatsOff]

12.6 million pensioners

x 203.85 x 52 weeks

= £133,562,520,000

Plus admin.

£113 billion. It was a mere £100 billion last year.

For context, £48 billion on defence, £181 billion on health, £60 billion on schools (not including higher education and loans).

I don't begrudge pensioners a pension, but the way the triple lock keeps sucking up all available money is suffocating other budgets.

 

[Muck Spreader]

Can anyone explain to me how we got to the situation where the tax burden is at the highest level for 70 years but our public services are in such a shocking state?

The NHS is a black hole for money, councils going bust left, right and centre, the judicial system creaking, armed forces now barely up to the job of defending the country etc etc. So where's the money going?? Covid must be partially to blame. However, the Tories seem to get off very light for imposing austerity but still squeezing ordinary folks hard (not their corporate and billionaire mates though, obviously).

Don't forget it is only high relative to the UK historically. Compared to most other first world countries it is still only an average tax burden.

 

[Ashtree]

No, it isn't. It would be to blame mass immigration for all woes, and I didn't, but it certainly is directly responsible for many. Care to offer figures of what it costs the UK, or maybe you'd like to write of the massively disproportionate amount of crime - particularly violent crime - that immigrants commit. Or perhaps you won't address that, because you can't and stay fashionable.

But no! Let's ignore the inconvenient facts of the matter and, instead, go to The Refugee Council for some convenient ones, e.g. this bunch of arseheads tell us that 'Refugees make a huge contribution to the UK', and go on to tell us:

• About 1,200 medically qualified refugees are recorded on the British Medical Association’s database. It is estimated that it costs around £25,000 to support a refugee doctor to practise in the UK. Training a new doctor is estimated to cost between £200,000 and £250,000
• Children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country. This in turn enables more successful integration of families into local communities

The truth about asylum

You can rely on our facts and figures to get the true picture about the situation—and help spread the truth about asylum.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk

Let's look at these these claims. Firstly, they choose doctors as a point in case, ignoring all other refugees, you know, the scroungers, labourers, rapists etc.. But what proportion of refugees are doctors? That figure they give is the TOTAL number, not the number for January this year or for 2023, but so far in total. In 2019 the UK got 133k refugees, 2020 132k, 2021 137k, 2022 328k.* That's well over 700k for those four years alone, and means the doctors (who came over a much longer period) would make up less than one sixth of one percent of refugees in the UK, and these are MDs on the BMA database, not necessarily working in the NHS.

Is anyone going to suggest each one of these Docs is going to do enough and contribute enough to make up for even a tenth of the >600 other refugees for every one of them?

Now, just read that second claim... it just says that 'children in the UK asylum system contribute very positively to schools across the country' and offers nothing to prove this, not a word, number or even a one-off anecdote. They've written it, so we just have to accept it... f*ck off! What do they contribute, just by being there?

And the second part of that is drivel too, of course e.g. Afghans integrate successfully into Afghan communities, and Syrians into Syrian communities etc. etc. of course they bloody do - but how well do they integrate into the UK's society as whole? We all know what the answer is in the vast majority of cases.

And that's just 'refugees', we have hundreds of thousands of people who have come over from e.g. Pakistan, India, Nigeria etc. not via the asylum scam, but who also fail to integrate into the UK, but fit in perfectly in their own communities.

*https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/refugee-statistics

A small man with a square moustache, less than a century ago, singled out a single cohort of the population, and blamed the woes both real and imagined of society on them.
A big man with a funny hairstyle does likewise today in USA.
A motley bunch of wannabe leaders, parliamentarians, dictators all across Europe, including here now in ROI, leverage the very same playbook for their selfish aims.
Economic woes in UK and everywhere and anywhere else, are of course caused by a myriad of different reasons.
Sadly though, the one which is easiest to make stick, is the immigrant issue.

 

[caveman]

A small man with a square moustache, less than a century ago, singled out a single cohort of the population, and blamed the woes both real and imagined of society on them.
A big man with a funny hairstyle does likewise today in USA.
A motley bunch of wannabe leaders, parliamentarians, dictators all across Europe, including here now in ROI, leverage the very same playbook for their selfish aims.
Economic woes in UK and everywhere and anywhere else, are of course caused by a myriad of different reasons.
Sadly though, the one which is easiest to make stick, is the immigrant issue.

How's your second colonisation going?
Going to plan?

 

[Ashtree]

How's your second colonisation going?
Going to plan?

Yes in fact. We should have them totally under our control, by Tuesday next week. They may cause a bit of a stink occasionally but shouldn’t be anything to lose sleep over. Bless ‘em..

 

[BrianV]

A small man with a square moustache, less than a century ago, singled out a single cohort of the population, and blamed the woes both real and imagined of society on them.
A big man with a funny hairstyle does likewise today in USA.
A motley bunch of wannabe leaders, parliamentarians, dictators all across Europe, including here now in ROI, leverage the very same playbook for their selfish aims.
Economic woes in UK and everywhere and anywhere else, are of course caused by a myriad of different reasons.
Sadly though, the one which is easiest to make stick, is the immigrant issue.

Whatever your feelings on migration it is impossible to claim that a net migration of over 500,000 a year has no impact on housing or social services, time will tell whether it’s good or bad for this country but all the signs are not promising

 

[Goweresque]

Narrow thinking to blame our woes on immigrants, such tiny percentages of spending.

Approximately 15% of the UK's population was not born here. You can add in a fair few more who were born here to parents who weren't. Its not a tiny percentage. And it only takes demand for a service to be a few % higher than the supply for the service to start to degrade pretty quickly.

The data shows that immigrants vary wildly in the contribution they make in tax vs the amount they take out in public spending. The basic rule of thumb is that immigrants from other western countries are net contributors, while those from non-western countries (including former Soviet bloc countries) are net consumers of public funds. Which makes sense - the immigrants working in care homes for minimum wage will be paying very little tax, but taking plenty of healthcare, education, and benefits spending out of the system. If we were importing lawyers, doctors and scientists immigration would be a net positive. Instead we are importing minimum wage workers who are net drawers from the system, which is why its collapsing.

Some useful data on the differing wages that immigrants generate here:

Do All Migrant Groups Contribute the Same? – The Daily Sceptic

Do all migrant groups contribute the same? New figures show that migrants from wealthy Western countries earn more than average, whereas migrants from poor countries in South Asia and Eastern Europe earn less.

dailysceptic.org