Tax Burden v Public Services

[essex man]

I agree with most of that apart from what's in bold. MoD pish away a staggering amount of money as it is, and you want to give them the opportunity to waste even more? That'd be trebles all round up at Abbey Wood.

Like all government departments MoD spend money inefficiently.
Both purchasing and employment is massively wasteful, the people in charge have no personal financial imperative.
Covid changed how people were treated employment wise, the private sector has largely returned to precovid where necessary, the public sector has not.

 

[robs1]

When you look at the number of public employees years ago compared to now it can explain the problem, it's the number of managers in all these public bodies that is the problem, take the police for example, years ago our village had its own bobby with his own police house today you never see one despite the village being three times the size, where is all the money going , public service pensions possibly, a guy I know well worked for the local council he retired at 51 and is still going at over 80 , another pair I know retired from the mod, she at 56 he at 52 on a very large pension. Add in all the extra roles in HSE, human resources etc etc and the ever increasing demand from a unfit population who expect ever more for nothing and it's no wonder front line service levels are sh!t

 

[Swarfmonkey]

The public sector is bloated, inefficient, and wasteful. It could do with ten years of McKinsey style rank and yank to get it down to size and get rid of the dross.

A shocking statistic for you. Between September 2022 and September 2023 employment in the public sector ballooned by 135,000 people. What the frigging hell are they (not) doing?

 

[Danllan]

My take on immigration/asylum seekers is that we need a certain amount of people coming in to do the jobs that the Brits are too idle or precious to do. As we benefitted hugely from having an empire across half the globe, I don't think it's unreasonable that we do our fair share to help those in genuine need, particularly from areas where we had an influence.
However, we can't simply have an open door, that's for certain. We need to get a humane, reasonable policy sorted that works for us too. That isn't Rwanda.

Great... how many? Give us a maximum figure, what number will be too many for these islands and / or will be more than the British people want?

 

[Woolless]

Great... how many? Give us a maximum figure, what number will be too many for these islands and / or will be more than the British people want?

Pass! It's an opinion, not a policy document!

As for what British people want, some would send 'em all back, some would have us overrun. I can imagine that most who voted for Brexit to control immigration didn't anticipate that the Eastern Europeans would be replaced by so many black and brown faces. That is noticeable as I drive through Edinburgh and Newcastle.

 

[Danllan]

A small man with a square moustache, less than a century ago, singled out a single cohort of the population, and blamed the woes both real and imagined of society on them.
A big man with a funny hairstyle does likewise today in USA.
A motley bunch of wannabe leaders, parliamentarians, dictators all across Europe, including here now in ROI, leverage the very same playbook for their selfish aims.
Economic woes in UK and everywhere and anywhere else, are of course caused by a myriad of different reasons.
Sadly though, the one which is easiest to make stick, is the immigrant issue.

Because it is a very real one.

I do not claim that 'immigration' per se is bad, of course it isn't, but the opposite is equally true i.e. of course it isn't all good. We, here in the UK, are faced with several very large problems resulting solely from immigration, of course there are other problems that are only partially related to it, and others that are in no way related to it.

There is no reason not to discuss, focus on, criticise and reject immigration policy as it stands and has it has been in the past. For far, far too long it was a subject that people were afraid to address for fear of being labelled as 'racist'. Well, sod that, I see my county taking in vast numbers of people it doesn't need, who don't do it good and of whom a greatly disproportionate number do actual harm within and to it.

And, every bit as importantly as all that, this has been and is still going on against the wishes of the great majority of the native population, and now even among some first, second and third generation immigrants. The left very successfully shut down discussion about immigration for decades; people are now sick of being told how awful they are for not agreeing with and kowtowing to that, it doesn't work anymore.

Out of interest, have you the courage and honesty to tell us what you think the maximum number of immigrants the ROI can / should take is, or will you dodge that with platitudes...?

 

[Danllan]

Pass! It's an opinion, not a policy document!

As for what British people want, some would send 'em all back, some would have us overrun. I can imagine that most who voted for Brexit to control immigration didn't anticipate that the Eastern Europeans would be replaced by so many black and brown faces. That is noticeable as I drive through Edinburgh and Newcastle.

I'm not interested in race, if we need engineers I'm fine with them coming from the Netherlands or Thailand! It's the numbers, the quality and the fact that the will of the nation is ignored that I have a problem with.

Odd that nobody advocating a 'liberal' immigration system never offers a maximum figure...

 

[More to life]

I'm not interested in race, if we need engineers I'm fine with them coming from the Netherlands or Thailand! It's the numbers, the quality and the fact that the will of the nation is ignored that I have a problem with.

Odd that nobody advocating a 'liberal' immigration system never offers a maximum figure...

Does it require a maximum after all to immigrate you first need a job.

 

[Woolless]

I'm not interested in race, if we need engineers I'm fine with them coming from the Netherlands or Thailand! It's the numbers, the quality and the fact that the will of the nation is ignored that I have a problem with.

Odd that nobody advocating a 'liberal' immigration system never offers a maximum figure...

I'm not offering a maximum figure because it would be meaningless without access to proper statistics etc. But there has to be a maximum, or a properly calculated limit.

 

[HatsOff]

The public sector is bloated, inefficient, and wasteful. It could do with ten years of McKinsey style rank and yank to get it down to size and get rid of the dross.

A shocking statistic for you. Between September 2022 and September 2023 employment in the public sector ballooned by 135,000 people. What the frigging hell are they (not) doing?

Interesting comparing us to other countries

Share of people employed in government by country 2019 | Statista

In Norway, over 30 percent of the population was employed in the government sector as of 2019.

www.statista.com

In 2019 percentage was similar to the USA. I wonder if years of austerity had run the numbers down and it's now regressing to the mean.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...ork/publicsectorpersonnel/timeseries/db36/pse

Also, I've worked for.large companies - plenty of waste and inefficiency there too. In my experience it's a large organisation problem, not a public or private problem.

 

[yin ewe]

the plucky english made semi finals of the world cup............

True and when it's all over no one remembers the side of the draw they were on......

 

[Ashtree]

True and when it's all over no one remembers the side of the draw they were on......

Ah, go easy on them. Rob will get upset you know.

 

[arcobob]

Interesting comparing us to other countries

Share of people employed in government by country 2019 | Statista

In Norway, over 30 percent of the population was employed in the government sector as of 2019.

www.statista.com

In 2019 percentage was similar to the USA. I wonder if years of austerity had run the numbers down and it's now regressing to the mean.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...ork/publicsectorpersonnel/timeseries/db36/pse

Also, I've worked for.large companies - plenty of waste and inefficiency there too. In my experience it's a large organisation problem, not a public or private problem.

It is the pyramid of command syndrome. As companies grow layers of management increase as each layer builds its own empire. Salaries go through the roof as each manager becomes more powerful and less responsible. Governments are notoriously bad at this and thus move towards privatisation to solve the problem, which after time creates its own problems. I always said that people who run big business should start off in a small family business and learn to make each move and transaction prifitable and accountable.

 

[soapsud]

I'm not offering a maximum figure because it would be meaningless without access to proper statistics etc. But there has to be a maximum, or a properly calculated limit.

Good Thread.
Regarding @Danllan wanting a max immigration figure. I'd answer as a stockman would. Look at the demographics and projected oldies to youngsters ratio and the rate of anticipated increase and compare it to our poor housing (poorly built and poorly insulated, badly sited and overpriced, since the 70s anyway) and work back from there. If @Danllan 's main point is that unchecked immigration carries on then he's not alone. A few alt-right demographers claim the UK will be unrecognisable in 30 years time.

To lighten the load, did you ever see Chewin' the Fat on TV way back? A sketch show that occasionally featured a town council meeting where Jeff/Geoff the Park-Keep often piped up his view on the agendas at hand using a fast talking no-nonsense nonsense sprinkled with a few burbles and whistles for added measure to make sure he had the last say!

We had to sit through a Council Planning Committee Meeting once for project that got refused and to which we could make our case in open session. The language used is something else. One councillor objected to a technicality on a certain policy because he hadn't been pre-notified with the usual emails of notification prior to the meeting. His point was quietly ignored!

Our administrative class in the UK need more Park Keeps to tell them what's happening on the ground.

 

[Bongodog]

A good example, the parish Council of the village I live in has doubled its salary bill in the past 5 years. It contracts out all grounds maintenance, the only manual worker is a litter picker for 10 hours a week yet wages take up 50% of the entire budget

 

[arcobob]

A good example, the parish Council of the village I live in has doubled its salary bill in the past 5 years. It contracts out all grounds maintenance, the only manual worker is a litter picker for 10 hours a week yet wages take up 50% of the entire budget

Councillors are volunteers and they see themselves as untouchable and unaccountable. Having said that, I would not want the job and certainly would not get a buzz from it.

 

[caveman]

Councillors are volunteers and they see themselves as untouchable and unaccountable. Having said that, I would not want the job and certainly would not get a buzz from it.

I think Bongo is more on about employed staff.
When I did my stint, some 25 years or so ago, there was one employed clerk, a self employed groundsman/odd job and contractors employed as and when needed.
Now, despite losing some of the parish to a neighbouring town council, there appears to be around 15 employed full time and part time admin and ground staff.

 

[HatsOff]

It is the pyramid of command syndrome. As companies grow layers of management increase as each layer builds its own empire. Salaries go through the roof as each manager becomes more powerful and less responsible. Governments are notoriously bad at this and thus move towards privatisation to solve the problem, which after time creates its own problems. I always said that people who run big business should start off in a small family business and learn to make each move and transaction prifitable and accountable.

Having plenty of dealings with the likes of Capita, Serco, Amey , the now defunct Carillon and so on... I don't think privatisation even solves that problem. Just shifts long term liabilities off the books.

 

[BrianV]

Having plenty of dealings with the likes of Capita, Serco, Amey , the now defunct Carillon and so on... I don't think privatisation even solves that problem. Just shifts long term liabilities off the books.

With things like road maintenance privatisation has made things far far worse, they turn up to repair pot holes, do only the few that have been marked by some other chap, they do a half hearted repair without sealing the edges & within 12 months what they put in has come out again & made it worse, so it goes on year after year.
At least when we had town councils doing B road repairs it was done properly & every hole was filled, I'll bet it's costing far more with these private contractors.

 

[tractorsandcows]

A good example, the parish Council of the village I live in has doubled its salary bill in the past 5 years. It contracts out all grounds maintenance, the only manual worker is a litter picker for 10 hours a week yet wages take up 50% of the entire budget

What do the rest do and by any chance are they relatives/mistresses of the council members