Techno grazing ..

[Kiwi Pete]

What I'm really leaning towards at this point is to simply subdivide the paddocks into lanes, and leave a strip at each end blank, sort of a laneway, and the sheep can soon be moved to graze these areas - it will just take some nutting out.
I'd still be using fence reels, but the fences will be tiny and quick to set up, that's the main factor counting against what I do now, I'd like to get my time input below an hour per acre per year.

 

[Crofter64]

What I'm really leaning towards at this point is to simply subdivide the paddocks into lanes, and leave a strip at each end blank, sort of a laneway, and the sheep can soon be moved to graze these areas - it will just take some nutting out.
I'd still be using fence reels, but the fences will be tiny and quick to set up, that's the main factor counting against what I do now, I'd like to get my time input below an hour per acre per year.

This is a simplified drawing of my own small farm. It is rectangular , as you see, and all the fields are straight. ( That’s how it works in flat country). Are the lanes you are talking about similar to the 4 ‘sections’, each with at least one page wire plus one permanent electric fence on each longer side. The ends are open. The animals move up and down the sections as needed and my cross fences are around 150 feet. They take minutes to set up. If this is sort of what you are planning to do( I think) how will you do it on a less rectangular property (you have shown us maps of your place on another thread). I run the sheep and cattle in seperate mobs and I find the sheep leave the field in excellent shape for the cows. They are more thorough and leave breaks cleaner. Cows trample better, sheep demolish. There is pressure at home to let go either the sheep or the cattle but I really think together they add up to more than the sum of their parts, at least as far as the pastures go.

What I'm really leaning towards at this point is to simply subdivide the paddocks into lanes, and leave a strip at each end blank, sort of a laneway, and the sheep can soon be moved to graze these areas - it will just take some nutting out.
I'd still be using fence reels, but the fences will be tiny and quick to set up, that's the main factor counting against what I do now, I'd like to get my time input below an hour per acre per year.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That's similar to what I'm aiming to do, I just have gateways in some really illogical places! So the best bet for now, I think, is to leave the ends open and that way it is easier to load the stock in, and compensate for the existing fencing.

I'll just be using single wires for now, but will have the clips on the rods so other wires can be added. Part of that reason is cost, partly I don't know where everything will end up, and partly for keeping my power nice and high, as I intend to have most of the farm "hot" most of the time
At least I have power on every fence, so it's merely a matter of tying knots and pushing rods in the ground.
Next is the water issue, but I have a plan

 

[Crofter64]

Next is the water issue, but I have a plan[/QUOTE]

What is it? I have had many ideas. The simpler the better I think

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Next is the water issue, but I have a plan

What is it? I have had many ideas. The simpler the better I think[/QUOTE]
I'll probably just make up drag pipes for a start.
200 metres will get me far enough from my main water lines that I can graze about anywhere; so I'll work on making them 200m with a dry-break fitting every 50, to simply plug portable troughs in where they need to be, and drag them into the next area ahead of the stock.

I've also got some places that would suit a permanent water station, and for those I have some floatation tyres, like ATV tyres but much larger, so I'll sink them into the ground and pour concrete bases once I have the pipe laid.
The bonus is they can take a fair bit of a hit, compared to a regular concrete one, and have a smaller opening to keep the sunlight off the water.

 

[onesiedale]

What is it? I have had many ideas. The simpler the better I think

I'll probably just make up drag pipes for a start.
200 metres will get me far enough from my main water lines that I can graze about anywhere; so I'll work on making them 200m with a dry-break fitting every 50, to simply plug portable troughs in where they need to be, and drag them into the next area ahead of the stock.

I've also got some places that would suit a permanent water station, and for those I have some floatation tyres, like ATV tyres but much larger, so I'll sink them into the ground and pour concrete bases once I have the pipe laid.
The bonus is they can take a fair bit of a hit, compared to a regular concrete one, and have a smaller opening to keep the sunlight off the water.[/QUOTE]
How are you making a water tank out of an old tyre?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I've seen a few portable trough designs on FB grazing groups, where they've put a hole in through the tread and put a wooden base in, sealed them up.
That would work, however the ones I did at the old farm were for my "$100 piggery" project, and I put the pipe up from below,, just a tee fitting and riser, and poured concrete in the bottom third so they couldn't root it out of the ground - so this is more along those lines. For these tyres (about 16 inches wide?) I'll dig at least 6 inches deep.

I've a few paddocks that I had in the back of my mind to do this, however this development just means I may put them at the ends of a run, and put hydrants in, and test another part of "the system", which ideally would have a waterer per 4 cells - but that's 1.3 troughs per acre

 

[NZDan]

I've seen a few portable trough designs on FB grazing groups, where they've put a hole in through the tread and put a wooden base in, sealed them up.
That would work, however the ones I did at the old farm were for my "$100 piggery" project, and I put the pipe up from below,, just a tee fitting and riser, and poured concrete in the bottom third so they couldn't root it out of the ground - so this is more along those lines. For these tyres (about 16 inches wide?) I'll dig at least 6 inches deep.

I've a few paddocks that I had in the back of my mind to do this, however this development just means I may put them at the ends of a run, and put hydrants in, and test another part of "the system", which ideally would have a waterer per 4 cells - but that's 1.3 troughs per acre

I took the hit and bought 5 kiwitech troughs. I don't regret that decision at all, they are tough and very easy to use and shift. To my mind they are great value for money.
I put up 4 wire fences with 2 x 2.5mm wires and 2 x 1.6mm wires, if I was starting again I would go all 1.6mm wires. The placement of the springs took some trial an error but I think I got them right in the end.

 

[NZDan]

Not easily.
Ideally I'm thinking 6 or 7 systems/lanes/racetracks would be ideal for our acreage - 42ha - as the number 6 is divisible by 1,2, or 3 then it makes the maths easy... say 6 mobs would mean a 35, 70, or 140 day recovery is simple.

But I would like to keep what I can, obviously sheep are a bit of a headache and a lot of work for what they really achieve, but I would like to keep some form of control over them as well.

When it comes to cattle vs sheep - the easiest analogy I can think of is:
You have a big pot of stew on your table and an empty bowl - what tools do we have to get to where we want to be?
A big native cow is your ladle, sheep are more like chopsticks, or teaspoons - a lot of work to achieve the same results, still doable but make much more work of an easy task.

So we're reassessing; it could be easier to "round down" our existing paddock's areas to accomodate the sheep, get rid of the sheep, or simply set it up for cattle and use the time savings to mess about with the sheep.

Noone said it was easy...

That was my problem with sheep, was how to put temporary fences up over multiple lanes, one farmer used two temp wires and set his quad up to drive through the three wire permanent fence, but I didnt trust my sheep behind 2 wires, that plus a steep twisted contour lead me to a technocell type arrangement, kind of, well really just good subdivison using kiwtech style fences.
One of the lancorp places has a 200ha technocell system using stick and string fencing with no gates and all portable water troughs. it was set up as a trial 20years ago and is still going.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That was my problem with sheep, was how to put temporary fences up over multiple lanes, one farmer used two temp wires and set his quad up to drive through the three wire permanent fence, but I didnt trust my sheep behind 2 wires, that plus a steep twisted contour lead me to a technocell type arrangement, kind of, well really just good subdivison using kiwtech style fences.
One of the lancorp places has a 200ha technocell system using stick and string fencing with no gates and all portable water troughs. it was set up as a trial 20years ago and is still going.

Yeah, to be fair I think any way I do it will involve compromise - but much like you, even having some of your area "pre-populated" would make a huge difference.
The trouble I have with fencing is: I really love it. I do put up a pretty schmick fence, but I think because I do it nearly all the time, my wife tends to not want to do it at all.
And that means less gets done, whereas if it becomes a "painting by numbers" grazing system, then I can take a step back and let the others get the fun of feeding the stock, rather than them watching me.

Those troughs definitely look good value, all the same.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Not easily.
Ideally I'm thinking 6 or 7 systems/lanes/racetracks would be ideal for our acreage - 42ha - as the number 6 is divisible by 1,2, or 3 then it makes the maths easy... say 6 mobs would mean a 35, 70, or 140 day recovery is simple.

But I would like to keep what I can, obviously sheep are a bit of a headache and a lot of work for what they really achieve, but I would like to keep some form of control over them as well.

When it comes to cattle vs sheep - the easiest analogy I can think of is:
You have a big pot of stew on your table and an empty bowl - what tools do we have to get to where we want to be?
A big native cow is your ladle, sheep are more like chopsticks, or teaspoons - a lot of work to achieve the same results, still doable but make much more work of an easy task.

So we're reassessing; it could be easier to "round down" our existing paddock's areas to accomodate the sheep, get rid of the sheep, or simply set it up for cattle and use the time savings to mess about with the sheep.

Noone said it was easy...

Did I really read that Pete!

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Do they run the system as 7000 actual physical cells all the time or are cells often grouped up?

We've just had much of the farmed mapped for lanes and cells, although the map looks like a huge number of cells, in practice given stock numbers in different groups and keeping everything moving within the magic 3 days at most.....and also allowing for how much electric fencing I really want do (code: not do), in most cases i think we'll be running a few cells at a time.
Also trying to allow different shelter for different stock and times of the year will be a head scratcher.
I'm really not keen on stock fenced in on all 4 sides with either electric fence or stock net in the middle of a blazing summer.

Moveable stock shades are available for this reason.

A good argument for "parkland" type trees randomly placed across the grazing.

 

[unlacedgecko]

That was my problem with sheep, was how to put temporary fences up over multiple lanes, one farmer used two temp wires and set his quad up to drive through the three wire permanent fence, but I didnt trust my sheep behind 2 wires, that plus a steep twisted contour lead me to a technocell type arrangement, kind of, well really just good subdivison using kiwtech style fences.
One of the lancorp places has a 200ha technocell system using stick and string fencing with no gates and all portable water troughs. it was set up as a trial 20years ago and is still going.

How wide are the laneways? IE how long would each temp fence be?

How often would you move a temp fence?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Did I really read that Pete!

I don't think it will come to that.

Get some pretty good income from the lambs as a hobby, sent 27 in today and grossed around $4500 they owe me about one-sixteenth of a ewe and two mls of vaccine, about 20 minutes of labour maybe? They don't seem a chore.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

How wide are the laneways? IE how long would each temp fence be?

How often would you move a temp fence?

I'm working on making lanes between 30-35 metres, 30x33 being 0.1ha, for ease of mind.
Andrew explained a few benefits of cell shape, if you keep them as square as possible it seems to work better at higher densities, certainly you don't want them approaching 4:1 in his words.
So given my reckonings @.3ha per mob per day, it would be 100x30ish, whether that's one or two or 3 moves, it remains very adaptable to the conditions and history of the cells being grazed.
At times it would be handy to run more mobs, I watched him move 12 mobs of cattle in as many minutes, and his bike never actually stopped in that time put the pogos in on the run, straight to the next mob, then take the wires back down again and away to the next 6 mobs

It really highlighted just how much I can do here for just a few grand.

 

[unlacedgecko]

I'm working on making lanes between 30-35 metres, 30x33 being 0.1ha, for ease of mind.
Andrew explained a few benefits of cell shape, if you keep them as square as possible it seems to work better at higher densities, certainly you don't want them approaching 4:1 in his words.
So given my reckonings @.3ha per mob per day, it would be 100x30ish, whether that's one or two or 3 moves, it remains very adaptable to the conditions and history of the cells being grazed.
At times it would be handy to run more mobs, I watched him move 12 mobs of cattle in as many minutes, and his bike never actually stopped in that time put the pogos in on the run, straight to the next mob, then take the wires back down again and away to the next 6 mobs

It really highlighted just how much I can do here for just a few grand.

Yeah I’ve had some sheep in rectangular cells. Even with grass left the naughty things walk up and down the fence line on the last day.

I’ve run an experiment this year with pegging down wire for moves. It’s been much faster and more flexible (as opposed to reeling back) and there’s been no increase in escapes.

So rather than making the grazing area bigger (multiple cells at once) you just move the mob multiple times a day?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Another little tip that I thought worth sharing was - for our type of pasture ie proper stuff with browntop and cocksfoot etc, was that there seemingly is a real "tipping point" at around 220,000kg LWT/ha, 250,000 is better.
That seems to be about their middle-ground, or their target stocking density, of course it will be doubled or halved depending on how many wires are lifted, or if the cells are split in half etc.
But that's his experience, for what that's worth, it could be a handy thing to keep in mind that "my" high stock density was only about 20% of that - hence my results were very very slow.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yeah I’ve had some sheep in rectangular cells. Even with grass left the naughty things walk up and down the fence line on the last day.

I’ve run an experiment this year with pegging down wire for moves. It’s been much faster and more flexible (as opposed to reeling back) and there’s been no increase in escapes.

So rather than making the grazing area bigger (multiple cells at once) you just move the mob multiple times a day?

Yeah, that's it, depending on other commitments more moves is better.
They have 18 mobs of cattle on thrice-daily moves, and a few other mobs spread out on daily moves.

It also depends on the cells themselves, obviously the odd few get fairly beat up during rain events, heifers bulling, stuff like that, so they just spread them out and go through it fast next time, or skip them straight over it and carry on - because its barely a thousandth of the farm, that doesn't make a tangible difference; you do what suits the stock and the land, and yourself.
Do what feels right.

And, of course, it basically eliminates most all "normal management tasks", (which are really just dressings over broken bones) so moving the stock is the work - and it doesn't seem much like work!!

They basically have each mob on its own 60-cell "racetrack" of 30x2 cells, 30 up, 30 back. And by using cattle with one wire, all it takes is a "pogo" or about a 6 foot fibreglass rod, to lift up the wire.

So bloody simple, it would make you cry; the whole way back I looked at what nearly every grass farmer was doing - as opposed to the money they could be making, if they sold a tractor and put in some wires.

It's really quite depressing

 

[Woolless]

Yeah, that's it, depending on other commitments more moves is better.
They have 18 mobs of cattle on thrice-daily moves, and a few other mobs spread out on daily moves.

It also depends on the cells themselves, obviously the odd few get fairly beat up during rain events, heifers bulling, stuff like that, so they just spread them out and go through it fast next time, or skip them straight over it and carry on - because its barely a thousandth of the farm, that doesn't make a tangible difference; you do what suits the stock and the land, and yourself.
Do what feels right.

And, of course, it basically eliminates most all "normal management tasks", (which are really just dressings over broken bones) so moving the stock is the work - and it doesn't seem much like work!!

They basically have each mob on its own 60-cell "racetrack" of 30x2 cells, 30 up, 30 back. And by using cattle with one wire, all it takes is a "pogo" or about a 6 foot fibreglass rod, to lift up the wire.

So bloody simple, it would make you cry; the whole way back I looked at what nearly every grass farmer was doing - as opposed to the money they could be making, if they sold a tractor and put in some wires.

It's really quite depressing

Pete, can you summarise the advantages of this system (for the hard of thinking)?

 

[unlacedgecko]

Yeah, that's it, depending on other commitments more moves is better.
They have 18 mobs of cattle on thrice-daily moves, and a few other mobs spread out on daily moves.

It also depends on the cells themselves, obviously the odd few get fairly beat up during rain events, heifers bulling, stuff like that, so they just spread them out and go through it fast next time, or skip them straight over it and carry on - because its barely a thousandth of the farm, that doesn't make a tangible difference; you do what suits the stock and the land, and yourself.
Do what feels right.

And, of course, it basically eliminates most all "normal management tasks", (which are really just dressings over broken bones) so moving the stock is the work - and it doesn't seem much like work!!

They basically have each mob on its own 60-cell "racetrack" of 30x2 cells, 30 up, 30 back. And by using cattle with one wire, all it takes is a "pogo" or about a 6 foot fibreglass rod, to lift up the wire.

So bloody simple, it would make you cry; the whole way back I looked at what nearly every grass farmer was doing - as opposed to the money they could be making, if they sold a tractor and put in some wires.

It's really quite depressing

The same pogo idea would work for sheep. Just need a shorter pogo. And more spring in the wires.

I’ve read about the pogos in Allan Savory’s book. No need for gates anywhere.