The Beltex is supreme.

[unlacedgecko]

That depends in lamb price, I've already heard some talk of people moving to lambing indoors again.
Lines like "every 10 lambs saved is over a grand" are starting to be heard.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

That depends in lamb price, I've already heard some talk of people moving to lambing indoors again.
Lines like "every 10 lambs saved is over a grand" are starting to be heard.

Because that's free of course... I love the logic

 

[Sandpit Farm]

But they still keep churning out highly fed below average index rams that folks still go mad after , Having seen quite a few v high index tups both here and abroad they are often quite average sized sheep (maybe sometimes small ) no-way is a builth or kelso seller going to buy into them, to much degree

This is a big issue Andy. High index sheep that are small... is that feeding or breeding? Are they smaller because the genetics are rubbish as the data don't work or are they smaller because the feeding regime involves forage only and the seller is happy that his/her market look beyond looks. It is fine when you buy from the farm gate but when you see them in comparison to big well fed types at sales, it would be hard for buyers not to be lured across to the 'bigger is better' side.

As a breed society, surely it is in your interest not to bite the hand that feeds you. Before long, you realise that serious income can be derived from sheep sale levies. If big overfed tups are what pay the bills, big overfed tups are what get promoted. Being involved with the Roussin society, this is something I really want to stay away from.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Because that's free of course... I love the logic

Nothing is free, but if you house them you have a lot more grass for them to go out to after they've lambed as well as more lambs, so the ewes will milk better and the lambs do better

 

[andybk]

This is a big issue Andy. High index sheep that are small... is that feeding or breeding? Are they smaller because the genetics are rubbish as the data don't work or are they smaller because the feeding regime involves forage only and the seller is happy that his/her market look beyond looks. It is fine when you buy from the farm gate but when you see them in comparison to big well fed types at sales, it would be hard for buyers not to be lured across to the 'bigger is better' side.

As a breed society, surely it is in your interest not to bite the hand that feeds you. Before long, you realise that serious income can be derived from sheep sale levies. If big overfed tups are what pay the bills, big overfed tups are what get promoted. Being involved with the Roussin society, this is something I really want to stay away from.

exactly the same as me (i think @neilo is similar ) , i know which are my best rams for meat and i wont compromise on size , 4 customers last week want blocky , fast growing , smaller framed rams as they always have had from me , dont want the big ones i have for wilton ,
I will remember to my dying day looking through a catalogue before i went to france about 6 years ago , there was a lamb with a huge index of 130 for muscle / growth / loin (the average is always 100 with most in the 95 -105 bracket) anything over 110 is top 5-10% ,rarely many over 120 .
on the day he was the smallest ch ram lamb i have ever seen , beltex size and bald , but my god the back legs were like 2 coconuts and a loin you couldnt span a hand on (not fat) , structure , teeth was fine , rang father said i will buy anyway with those figures as it will come out somewhere , no one else will buy him to small , that was a laugh he was second highest price of the day and went to an indoor lamber in Switzerland for use on dairy sheep . taught me a lot about assumptions on what is best , and what other peoples opinions are , like the famous quote " build it and they will come !"

 

[ISCO]

Nothing is free, but if you house them you have a lot more grass for them to go out to after they've lambed as well as more lambs, so the ewes will milk better and the lambs do better

I agree that you need to rest grass whether this be by means of housing or a sacrifice field/brassicas to accumulate grass for lambing for ewes and lambs to do well.
Having started outdoor lambing around 5 years ago after 40 plus years of indoor lambing I don't think I rear less lambs outside. They also seem.much healthier and livelier than indoor lambs and cost a lot less to produce.
We are looking to more Beltex/Texel blood to try and improve returns as lambing outside produces more lamb to sell in the glut. We have previously used Suffolk rams for growth rate.

 

[Hilly]

That depends in lamb price, I've already heard some talk of people moving to lambing indoors again.
Lines like "every 10 lambs saved is over a grand" are starting to be heard.

Subsidy bred a farmer not a bussiness man.

 

[M-J-G]

Subsidy bred a farmer not a bussiness man.

Very much, the same can also be said for good prices, the more money there is from whatever source, the more luxuriously people farm.
If lambs were worth 300 quid people would become a lot more precious about them and probably add costs in preventative ways.

Luxuries that we use every day like sheds, concrete, high spec tractors, feeder wagons, Ammonium Nitrate etc. go to parts where there are no payments and these things become a lot more rare, even silage is avoided to keeps costs down on beef and sheep units where farming isn't subsidised.

Maybe we'll all get to that point, who knows

 

[M-J-G]

exactly the same as me (i think neilo is the same ) , i know which are my best rams for meat and i wont compromise on size , 4 customers last week want blocky , fast growing , smaller framed rams as they always have had from me , dont want the big ones i have for wilton ,
I will remember to my dying day looking through a catalogue before i went to france about 6 years ago , there was a lamb with a huge index of 130 for muscle / growth / loin (the average is always 100 with most in the 95 -105 bracket) anything over 110 is top 5-10% ,rarely many over 120 .
on the day he was the smallest ch ram lamb i have ever seen , beltex size and bald , but my god the back legs were like 2 coconuts and a loin you couldnt span a hand on (not fat) , structure , teeth was fine , rang father said i will buy anyway with those figures as it will come out somewhere , no one else will buy him to small , that was a laugh he was second highest price of the day and went to an indoor lamber in Switzerland for use on dairy sheep . taught me a lot about assumptions on what is best , and what other peoples opinions are , like the famous quote " build it and they will come !"

What type of ewes are these small blocky rams going to?

 

[andybk]

What type of ewes are these small blocky rams going to?

mainly suff / mule (i recon 70% of my customers have them ) and one old customer roussin cross ewes , when i say small blocky rams they are about 80-90kg as shearlings , 100-120kg mature weight

 

[unlacedgecko]

mainly suff / mule (i recon 70% of my customers have them ) and one old customer roussin cross ewes , when i say small blocky rams they are about 80-90kg as shearlings , 100-120kg mature weight

That's small and blocky?!

 

[andybk]

That's small and blocky?!

It is in the charollais world , 130-150kg shearlings not unusual these days, 100kg is norm for ram lambs at worcester if you want to compete .

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

I agree that you need to rest grass whether this be by means of housing or a sacrifice field/brassicas to accumulate grass for lambing for ewes and lambs to do well.
Having started outdoor lambing around 5 years ago after 40 plus years of indoor lambing I don't think I rear less lambs outside. They also seem.much healthier and livelier than indoor lambs and cost a lot less to produce.
We are looking to more Beltex/Texel blood to try and improve returns as lambing outside produces more lamb to sell in the glut. We have previously used Suffolk rams for growth rate.

We lamb half inside in March and half outside in April. The March ones are mostly Beltex/Texel and the April ones Texel Mules up to 3/4 Texel. I like the April ones at lambing and the March ones at selling

 

[Llmmm]

Carlisle today - about 700 shearling rams averaged £1500, with a top price of 30,000 gns.

I can't remember being at a sale with as much buzz and enthusiasm.
And the same will happen next year after about a third of the purchases have died.

The key to keeping beltex rams alive is to not let them get fat.some should never be sold for breeding due to short necks

 

[unlacedgecko]

It is in the charollais world , 130-150kg shearlings not unusual these days, 100kg is norm for ram lambs at worcester if you want to compete .

To produce a 44-48kg fat lamb?? How do these lambs get the correct finish at that weight?

 

[andybk]

To produce a 44-48kg fat lamb?? How do these lambs get the correct finish at that weight?

exactly , but they will still be buying them at Builth in a few weeks , then wonder why the lambs dont finish , doubt the suff or tex will be much different

 

[Estate fencing.]

exactly , but they will still be buying them at Builth in a few weeks , then wonder why the lambs dont finish , doubt the suff or tex will be much different

Who are these people who buy tups at Builth that everyone keeps talking about? I don’t know a single farm who buys those types of tups.

 

[muleman]

Very much, the same can also be said for good prices, the more money there is from whatever source, the more luxuriously people farm.
If lambs were worth 300 quid people would become a lot more precious about them and probably add costs in preventative ways.

Luxuries that we use every day like sheds, concrete, high spec tractors, feeder wagons, Ammonium Nitrate etc. go to parts where there are no payments and these things become a lot more rare, even silage is avoided to keeps costs down on beef and sheep units where farming isn't subsidised.

Maybe we'll all get to that who knows

Maybe we'll get some sub if folk are going hungry.

 

[M-J-G]

mainly suff / mule (i recon 70% of my customers have them ) and one old customer roussin cross ewes , when i say small blocky rams they are about 80-90kg as shearlings , 100-120kg mature weight

But people with these big ewes can go to a smaller or less growthy ram because the ewe has size and growth there in abundance.

Given the choice between a big ewe mated to a small ram or a smaller ewe mated to a big ram, I'd opt for the big ram on a smaller ewe because I'd only have a handful of big sheep to feed.

 

[unlacedgecko]

But people with these big ewes can go to a smaller or less growthy ram because the ewe has size and growth there in abundance.

Given the choice between a big ewe mated to a small ram or a smaller ewe mated to a big ram, I'd opt for the big ram on a smaller ewe because I'd only have a handful of big sheep to feed.

I'm 100% in agreement. Cheap ewes and expensive tups, small ewes and bigger tups.