The future of arable cropping

[Marius]

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People have been trained to be scared of communism, why?

I have no doubt this capitalism, free market system is not perfect but would never want to go back to Soviet era. I get sick just by thinking about it. I don't think there was ever such thing as communism in the real world. But we are getting carried away..

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I have no doubt this capitalism, free market system is not perfect but would never want to go back to Soviet era. I get sick just by thinking about it. I don't think there was ever such thing as communism in the real world. But we are getting carried away..

Likewise, but IMO the Soviet flavour communism (and the Chinese) is still quite impure, ie it's still politically driven by little boys playing war games.
It certainly can be better than this, I do feel almost everything will get worse before it gets better, and probably over food, freshwater, and land;

What do we have, again?
Food, water catchments, and land.

 

[martian]

I don’t think we are as bad at farming as the communist Soviet Union John!

We are, I hope, a whole heap better than the old collective farms. The point I was trying to make (not very well as it turned out) was that the abundance of produce that comes off an acre of allotments feeds more people rather better than a few tonnes of feed barley which would have come off one of our arable acres.

We were taught (correctly I think, to allay Marius's fears that I'm promoting Comrade Corbyn or whoever and a Five Year Plan) that the Soviet system was very inefficient...I just reckon our current food system is broken too: it doesn't work for us farmers, the consumers, the environment...no-one in fact apart from the supermarkets, Big Pharma, Big Oil (ie fertiliser makers) and 'food' manufacturers. We are encouraged to grow commodities, which other businesses buy very cheaply and turn into food which doesn't nourish the population that well or healthily (obesity levels are ever increasing, life expectancy is decreasing, degenerative diseases are killing us off).

As it happens, the answer lies in the soil, to bring us back to the OP

 

[teslacoils]

As it happens, the answer lies in the soil, to bring us back to the OP

I think the answer lies in the national culture.

 

[DaveGrohl]

KP, I agree with just about everything you're saying. However, the reality is that farmers everywhere are just trying to make a meagre living whilst not fekking up their land to the best of their ability. Individually we can make no difference to anything much, the system has driven us down a certain alley. Those who can pursue a niche have my blessing, I have my own personal niche which doesn't require me to rape my land but I am lucky in that regard.

Although things need to change, the fact is that sadly we are currently having huge numbers of people being bombarded with media rhetoric along the lines of stop livestock production and lets grow vegan crops using artificial fertilisers, everyone's a winner, we're saving the planet. Livestock are destroying the planet. People are actually being told this lunacy, it's everywhere.

Nothing will change until the penny finally drops that it's humans that are the problem.

 

[renewablejohn]

I know. But I HAVE to say something, if everyone is just gonna sit around, then I have to say it more

When you look at all the guys with 4,5,600 acres who are really, really digging deep just to pay their bills, but proudly fly the "farming is the solution" banner; it is REALLY hard to be that other guy, that dream-smasher who says it isn't.
Sorry, but that's not the best way to do things.

Communal gardening efforts, composting refuse, cooperation - these things work; farming is just like this except for pretty much every nuance, every chemical and every lorry-load in and out the gate.

We have people not working because "no jobs around here" and farms are working out how to control their weeds and get crops off wet land - it isn't a huge leap in technology we need, but testes

I feel we're ignoring what actually got us to where we are, and missing the really vital clues as to how we can effect changes.
It's easy to miss the clues if we are scared of poverty, primitive man carried few liabilities and overheads, so we're scared to look at primitive "us"

Stop laughing at the "good-lifers" with their fantastic productive, profitable gardens, the growing homesteader movement in the states; IMO they are far far closer to "the solution" than this capitalist/socialist horror we defend so vigourously today.

I bet this all makes me Mr Popular but I don't make that my business!

I know the feeling having upset many large farmers being busy fools with only there subs keeping them afloat yet they see me without subs and 5 hectares making money. They just dont get it that you can do more than one crop on the same bit of land per year.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I know the feeling having upset many large farmers being busy fools with only there subs keeping them afloat yet they see me without subs and 5 hectares making money. They just dont get it that you can do more than one crop on the same bit of land per year.

There's sometimes good reason, when things look hopeless....
Scaling up was never "the answer", but the advice was given freely; with scale you have overheads, you spread yourself too thin, and you need to cheat nature a little.
And they can sell you things to help with all of those problems!
So it does make 'sound economic sense' to pay subsidies, direct farmers to: specialise, expand, grow more wheat! Grow more barley! Give up your diversity, you won't need it where we're taking you!

For my garden, I bought $200 worth of tools 18 years ago and it now feeds a family of 4 all year round - very well
Yeah, I hunt, and fish, and dive for paua, occasionally we buy some chicken; but we basically feed ourselves for pennies and live like kings.
The joys of being a millionaire...

"Race to the bottom" they say? Buckle up!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

KP, I agree with just about everything you're saying. However, the reality is that farmers everywhere are just trying to make a meagre living whilst not fekking up their land to the best of their ability. Individually we can make no difference to anything much, the system has driven us down a certain alley. Those who can pursue a niche have my blessing, I have my own personal niche which doesn't require me to rape my land but I am lucky in that regard.

Although things need to change, the fact is that sadly we are currently having huge numbers of people being bombarded with media rhetoric along the lines of stop livestock production and lets grow vegan crops using artificial fertilisers, everyone's a winner, we're saving the planet. Livestock are destroying the planet. People are actually being told this lunacy, it's everywhere.

Nothing will change until the penny finally drops that it's humans that are the problem.

I think (in fact, it's knowledge, so I know) that feeling when you're backed into a corner

However, despite all the vegan propaganda, you'd be surprised just how little threat they pose - they just shout really really loud, but people are not as dumb and accepting as we may think of them.

Yeah, some are and all, but they won't breed too well and they will be the first ones to fall, as just discussed nature's first requisite is LIFE and the second is DIVERSITY and the third is COMMUNITY

This is just a phase the internetted world is going through, because most everyone is very depressed and not very well.

It's all that sh!t they eat, and it's eating them!

As farmers we have the water catchments, the landscape in our care, the ONLY reason we have no strength is because we're not a community but an industry. Nature doesn't do industry.
Nobody shares their toys, everyone has a boundary fence, and few eat with their neighbours on a regular basis. This is NOT HUMAN NATURE at all.

This is all our flaws, our beliefs, and our prejudices manifesting themselves, because we're all hurting a bit and nobody can put words to it.

You cannot make sense of it, do not try to.
Just keep doing the best job you can until you find a new way that's better, but keep diversifying, keep talking to people about what you do and why you do it.
Break down these barriers and change the world - a day at a time.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Thank you

 

[willy]

What ab

There's sometimes good reason, when things look hopeless....
Scaling up was never "the answer", but the advice was given freely; with scale you have overheads, you spread yourself too thin, and you need to cheat nature a little.
And they can sell you things to help with all of those problems!
So it does make 'sound economic sense' to pay subsidies, direct farmers to: specialise, expand, grow more wheat! Grow more barley! Give up your diversity, you won't need it where we're taking you!

For my garden, I bought $200 worth of tools 18 years ago and it now feeds a family of 4 all year round - very well
Yeah, I hunt, and fish, and dive for paua, occasionally we buy some chicken; but we basically feed ourselves for pennies and live like kings.
The joys of being a millionaire...

"Race to the bottom" they say? Buckle up!

That’s all very well for you, but what about the billions of people who live in a flat?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What ab



That’s all very well for you, but what about the billions of people who live in a flat?

Then they may need to check their priorities in future?

Would they be able to live in flats without us guys supplying them their protein, I don't really think that's feasible.... it's a real "chicken or the egg" story, how we came to be this utterly reliant and interdependent species from our nomadic, forager roots.

The real challenge is how do you reverse the past 14,000 years to become more like the previous 200,000 - or do we simply continue on the current path and hope the next new technology solves all our ills with one blow?

I know some have their hopes set on autonomous vehicles/robot technology, however we as a species used to perform those functions ourselves; cattle still can do all the things that they evolved to do with only slightly diminished ability - yet it's the veggo brigade that want them gone.
"Methane is the problem"
"They're tying up valuable space"
....Nope, that's us, trying to not see the inevitable consequences of being too big and arrogant for our planet

We can grow zero-input polycultures, and we can harvest them - but we must get rid of the baggage to get us there again

 

[Clever Dic]

Then they may need to check their priorities in future?

Would they be able to live in flats without us guys supplying them their protein, I don't really think that's feasible.... it's a real "chicken or the egg" story, how we came to be this utterly reliant and interdependent species from our nomadic, forager roots.

The real challenge is how do you reverse the past 14,000 years to become more like the previous 200,000 - or do we simply continue on the current path and hope the next new technology solves all our ills with one blow?

I know some have their hopes set on autonomous vehicles/robot technology, however we as a species used to perform those functions ourselves; cattle still can do all the things that they evolved to do with only slightly diminished ability - yet it's the veggo brigade that want them gone.
"Methane is the problem"
"They're tying up valuable space"
....Nope, that's us, trying to not see the inevitable consequences of being too big and arrogant for our planet

We can grow zero-input polycultures, and we can harvest them - but we must get rid of the baggage to get us there again

You paint a rosy picture of our non governed nomadic forager beginings but leave out the startling fact that 1 in 4 of these hunter gatherers died a violent death at the hands of another band. The present is the most peaceful time man has existed on earth and this is due to centralization of government and resourses ..particularly agriculture.the creation of leviathan allowed specialization and culture.
The civilization of man and decline of violence is directly tied to our ability to feed ourselves with a small % of the population engaged in agriculture.
Our forebearers had very hard short brutish lives.
Read, The better angels of our nature.. By Stephen Pinker not light reading but eye opening.
We live in the best of times now.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

You paint a rosy picture of our non governed nomadic forager beginings but leave out the startling fact that 1 in 4 of these hunter gatherers died a violent death at the hands of another band. The present is the most peaceful time man has existed on earth and this is due to centralization of government and resourses ..particularly agriculture.the creation of leviathan allowed specialization and culture.
The civilization of man and decline of violence is directly tied to our ability to feed ourselves with a small % of the population engaged in agriculture.
Our forebearers had very hard short brutish lives.
Read, The better angels of our nature.. By Stephen Pinker not light reading but eye opening.
We live in the best of times now.

Oh, for sure we do. Despite the mind-control of modern media a lot of positive stories are simply dropped - they're in sales, as we are.
The happier we are, the less happy our planet's ecology is - a balance must be struck if we're to have the slightest chance of another 500 years.

Industrial agriculture won't solve the problem, as it caused and enabled it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the 1 in 4 deathrate repeats itself in the next 100.

 

[Rainmaker]

Sorry if this is slightly off thread but I have often wondered when I read on here and have seen first hand in the states but how do they get away with growing soya beans so often (double cropped) and so close in rotation. There must be problems with soil borne disease but they seem to carry on doing so? I was a field bean grower and it was real risky growing any closer than 1 in 5 years so how do they get round it ? Watching Millennium Farmer on U tube and he seems to only grow maize (corn) and soya not even wheat , not sure how they get away with it ?

I've often wondered that too. 1 in 5 is plenty soon enough for peas/beans here too. Possibly the soya/corn rotation has a similar effect as continuous wheat being the land seems to get a natural immunity?.

 

[ajd132]

I've often wondered that too. 1 in 5 is plenty soon enough for peas/beans here too. Possibly the soya/corn rotation has a similar effect as continuous wheat being the land seems to get a natural immunity?.

Do you think it might be something to do with them often being GM?

 

[B'o'B]

Soya has a completely different disease profile to peas and beans. The soil born pathogens of peas and beans don’t affect soya.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Soya has a completely different disease profile to peas and beans. The soil born pathogens of peas and beans don’t affect soya.

A continuous gorse rotation seems to work well without pesticides but it was never bred to be weak enough to need 'em ?

 

[teslacoils]

I've often wondered that too. 1 in 5 is plenty soon enough for peas/beans here too. Possibly the soya/corn rotation has a similar effect as continuous wheat being the land seems to get a natural immunity?.

Climate helps. You can't compare places like Minnesota or the Dakotas with here. Our humid, damp climate is seldom moisture limiting, but at a cost of being wonderful for fungus and bacteria both beneficial and not.

My relatives is Nebraska will often be irrigating shortly after the snow has melted. Crazy lack of humidity despite similar rainfall makes comparisons impossible.

Their GM was aimed at their big problems namesly some maize beetle, then herbicide tollerance. Soil based fungi dont really build up in the frozen winters and dry summers.

 

[warksfarmer]

The UK does not really waste millions on prescriptions for paracetamol. It is true that the NHS will spend (I think it was 14 million but can't remember) an amount of money on what could be considered run of the mill things like Paracetamol, however this is due to a few reasons:

1. They may be prescribed in place of stronger medications as part of a cascade.

2. They may be prescribed and used in a differing form to that sold on the high street- I/V paracetamol is actually very effective and may present fewer complications or compliment other medicines (ie using it with morphine).

3. People who are hospitalised for whatever reason are not encouraged to simply take whatever medication they can buy from Boots down the road. If someone is hospitalised and has a need for an every day medication, they are prescribed and given it under the direction of clinicians and so it is best dispensed by hospital staff.


I too was nearly incensed to learn that the NHS was wasting money on pills you can buy over the counter, but had to shut up and learn not long after when my wife was given I/V paracetamol during pregnancy because of an extreme fever they needed to get under control.

Unfortunate this is one of those cases where there is much more behind the tabloid headlines.

My GP friend would disagree with you entirely I’m afraid. He’s on the shop floor.
Another one for you - the massive increase in so called diabetes. People are being diagnosed due to financial kick backs rather than their true condition. Or put it another way 20 years ago they wouldn’t have been diabetic.

 

[ollie989898]

My GP friend would disagree with you entirely I’m afraid. He’s on the shop floor.
Another one for you - the massive increase in so called diabetes. People are being diagnosed due to financial kick backs rather than their true condition. Or put it another way 20 years ago they wouldn’t have been diabetic.

Unfortunately GPs taking part in commissioning groups are one of the reasons it is borked.