The great global warming scam, worth a listen I think.

[Dave645]

It would seem fairly obvious that anything we do either in the UK or even the EU by strangling our manufacturing base will achieve nothing other than make China ever stronger as they will simply produce what we close down, how anybody can believe this helps the Earth baffles me.
Judging a country simply by emissions per capita is a recipe for disaster.

While you may not like a per capita, it’s the fairest way, to judge countries for blame for climate change.
There are millions of Chinese that don’t own cars or big screen tv’s etc etc. Yet you want to judge them as bad for having half the emissions of some countries. Co2 is going to come down to personal consumption choices at some point owning a V10 car and running air con and importing your food from all over the world all have a cost and are all an inderviduals choice, as are flying to go on holiday. Finger pointing is just some people trying to shift the blame it’s pointless we are all on the hook for it no exceptions.
All countries that agreed to the Paris agreement set targets and agreed a system to help hit those targets.
China is still , and is still trying to meet those long term targets just like the uk and other countries. If there is to be finger pointing I would point at countries that dropped out of the Paris agreement and are not meeting the targets and are not trying to hit the long term targets.
No one expected it to be easy, and it will not be cleaning up our National grids is the easy cheap bit, it’s all the other stuff that’s hard. The stoping the selling of new ice cars in the uk will not do it as there will still be millions of ice cars that will no doubt be running around for 10-15 years after that if not longer.
cutting Co2 is thousands of small choices and changes, we all have to make.

I will point out if or went Co2 is given a value it become tradable, so if the uk hits zero fast they get to trade any spare Co2 credits to earn money from just like a new EV car company does now. . . So it’s likely in the UK’s Financial interests to hit net zero as quickly as possible, or at least have a surpluses of credits.

 

[Mouser]

Read somewhere that china are building approximately 1 coal fired power station per week. Doesn't sound like a plan to be carbon neutral. No doubt the climate tax enthusiasts will deny or justify this somehow.

 

[linga]

Read somewhere that china are building approximately 1 coal fired power station per week. Doesn't sound like a plan to be carbon neutral. No doubt the climate tax enthusiasts will deny or justify this somehow.

But how much renewable energy are they also putting in or facilitating ?

 

[str2mslf]

Read somewhere that china are building approximately 1 coal fired power station per week. Doesn't sound like a plan to be carbon neutral. No doubt the climate tax enthusiasts will deny or justify this somehow.

Most likely true since in 2020 they commissioned 38.4 GW of new coal power plants, meanwhile 37.8 GW of coal-fired generation retired globally. They have additional 88.1 GW of coal-fired generation in construction. But then I don't think it is a country that any of 1st world countries should copycat.

 

[Mouser]

But how much renewable energy are they also putting in or facilitating ?

Probably far less than they claim to be but even if its lots how can they justify investing in coal burners?

 

[linga]

Probably far less than they claim to be but even if its lots how can they justify investing in coal burners?

Could it be because the average Chinese chap wants the same standard of living as we do in the west.
how can we in the west justify all the air travel we do or unnecessary car journeys etc ?

 

[BrianV]

While you may not like a per capita, it’s the fairest way, to judge countries for blame for climate change.
There are millions of Chinese that don’t own cars or big screen tv’s etc etc. Yet you want to judge them as bad for having half the emissions of some countries. Co2 is going to come down to personal consumption choices at some point owning a V10 car and running air con and importing your food from all over the world all have a cost and are all an inderviduals choice, as are flying to go on holiday. Finger pointing is just some people trying to shift the blame it’s pointless we are all on the hook for it no exceptions.
All countries that agreed to the Paris agreement set targets and agreed a system to help hit those targets.
China is still , and is still trying to meet those long term targets just like the uk and other countries. If there is to be finger pointing I would point at countries that dropped out of the Paris agreement and are not meeting the targets and are not trying to hit the long term targets.
No one expected it to be easy, and it will not be cleaning up our National grids is the easy cheap bit, it’s all the other stuff that’s hard. The stoping the selling of new ice cars in the uk will not do it as there will still be millions of ice cars that will no doubt be running around for 10-15 years after that if not longer.
cutting Co2 is thousands of small choices and changes, we all have to make.

I will point out if or went Co2 is given a value it become tradable, so if the uk hits zero fast they get to trade any spare Co2 credits to earn money from just like a new EV car company does now. . . So it’s likely in the UK’s Financial interests to hit net zero as quickly as possible, or at least have a surpluses of credits.

Basically you are saying that we are going to achieve absolutely nothing as you accept that we are slowly closing down the Wests manufacturing base through ever higher green taxes thus transferring those manufacturing businesses to the far east which then has the added pollution of container ships transferring those goods back to us. This increases pollution not reduce it.
So called green electric cars are just a manufacturing con which the Chinese will eventually exploit sooner or later by undercutting the price of cars produced in all other countries.
This in no way helps the planet so what the hells the point!!

 

[BrianV]

Could it be because the average Chinese chap wants the same standard of living as we do in the west.
how can we in the west justify all the air travel we do or unnecessary car journeys etc ?

Could just as easily say the same for Africa or endless other countries, seems to me there are just as many Chinese flying around the world now.

 

[Dave645]

Basically you are saying that we are going to achieve absolutely nothing as you accept that we are slowly closing down the Wests manufacturing base through ever higher green taxes thus transferring those manufacturing businesses to the far east which then has the added pollution of container ships transferring those goods back to us. This increases pollution not reduce it.
So called green electric cars are just a manufacturing con which the Chinese will eventually exploit sooner or later by undercutting the price of cars produced in all other countries.
This in no way helps the planet so what the hells the point!!

Actually the opposite, of what you say is true. China understands the benefits of renewables very well, but they are a big country with a massively increase demand for energy, as there population catches up to us as a first world country. They demand more energy. We still consume more energy that them on a per person level. You seem to want to deny some people what we enjoy every day just because they are respeating some of the mistake we made a hundred years ago. It’s a mistake to build coal fired power stations and it’s already causing them problems getting the coal they need to run them. . .
We make choices over heavy industry and so do they, we are finding cleaner ways to do heavy industry, that’s high in Co2 emissions all the time.
We make choices to export heavy industry, we can chose to stop doing that. I personally think allowing China to control heavy industry is a mistake but I am not in charge, of those things.

as for EV’s being a con, I think that with a 96% recyclable rate which VW is planning on, for the batteries and the once recycled materials being able to be reused to make new batteries I think you will find they are far from a con and will soon be cheaper than ice cars to make, and they are already cheaper to run. I would rather mine for elements needed for EV batteries than the endless requirements for more coal. One is recyclable the other is not.

And as far as I can see know one is being forced to buy an EV even when they ban the sale of new ice cars, if you so wish you can run an ice car as long as you can keep it on the road which with care could be 30 years or more no trouble. Like I said personal choices. There are plenty of cars around that are 50 years old. While often not daily drivers they do still run.

 

[linga]

Could just as easily say the same for Africa or endless other countries, seems to me there are just as many Chinese flying around the world now.

Yes indeed but I bet an awful lot more Chinese are sitting at home in comparative poverty compared to the West.
Who are we to prevent them developing?
Are we saying to them that we have had our industrial revolution which was the basis for our riches now and also is the cause of many envronmental problems today but you can not have yours?

 

[BrianV]

Actually the opposite, of what you say is true. China understands the benefits of renewables very well, but they are a big country with a massively increase demand for energy, as there population catches up to us as a first world country. They demand more energy. We still consume more energy that them on a per person level. You seem to want to deny some people what we enjoy every day just because they are respeating some of the mistake we made a hundred years ago. It’s a mistake to build coal fired power stations and it’s already causing them problems getting the coal they need to run them. . .
We make choices over heavy industry and so do they, we are finding cleaner ways to do heavy industry, that’s high in Co2 emissions all the time.
We make choices to export heavy industry, we can chose to stop doing that. I personally think allowing China to control heavy industry is a mistake but I am not in charge, of those things.

as for EV’s being a con, I think that with a 96% recyclable rate which VW is planning on, for the batteries and the once recycled materials being able to be reused to make new batteries I think you will find they are far from a con and will soon be cheaper than ice cars to make, and they are already cheaper to run. I would rather mine for elements needed for EV batteries than the endless requirements for more coal. One is recyclable the other is not.

And as far as I can see know one is being forced to buy an EV even when they ban the sale of new ice cars, if you so wish you can run an ice car as long as you can keep it on the road which with care could be 30 years or more no trouble. Like I said personal choices. There are plenty of cars around that are 50 years old. While often not daily drivers they do still run.

Seems to me we never learn that history almost always repeats it's self, I'll bet any money that in the thirties the world was saying " look at those enterprising Germans & their manufacturing miracle how they deserve to catch up with the rest of us" then some crack pot leadership decided they were strong enough to start expanding their borders somewhat, sound familiar?
China is reaching the point where it's own crack pot leadership has decided they are now strong enough to flex their muscles & people seem to think it's a good idea to let them carry on, it will end in misery take my word for it!

 

[Old McDonald]

Here’s the same data being talked about on the news, been snowing here in wales last weekend

No, it is not the same data being talked about on an Australian TV channel. You frequently claim your climate change sceptic videos to be something they are not. Why? You fool nobody with this approach. What is being talked about is the projections of those who thought they could tell the future. Nobody can tell the future. Some folks cannot even interpret actual data.

You post that it snowed in Wales last weekend. It frequently snows throughout parts of the UK in April and sometimes in May. Snow has been known to fall in the Channel Islands in April. Statistically it is as likely to snow in many parts of the UK in April as it is in November. Snow in April is nothing unusual, but of course you have no records of your own to show that. You will not even tell us your nearest official weather station so that we can show the world how much your local temperature has increased in your own short lifetime.

I have seen snow in Northumberland in June on fairly low ground. Admittedly only once – the day the result of the referendum about remaining in Europe’s “ever closer union” in 1975 became known. A bad omen I thought.

 

[Mouser]

Yes indeed but I bet an awful lot more Chinese are sitting at home in comparative poverty compared to the West.
Who are we to prevent them developing?
Are we saying to them that we have had our industrial revolution which was the basis for our riches now and also is the cause of many envronmental problems today but you can not have yours?

We didn't have wind and solar technology available for our revolution but they do. If it's cheaper to mine and burn coal in brand new power stations for the next 40 years to run factories to make stuff for us, it will be no more polluting to the world for us to do the same.

 

[linga]

We didn't have wind and solar technology available for our revolution but they do. If it's cheaper to mine and burn coal in brand new power stations for the next 40 years to run factories to make stuff for us, it will be no more polluting to the world for us to do the same.

Don’t disagree with you there. I am not making the case for China to export to us.
I am only saying that they wish to develop and we are not going to stop them. Same for India Africa etc.I would be quite happy not to buy anything from China but there is often little choice

 

[Dave645]

Seems to me we never learn that history almost always repeats it's self, I'll bet any money that in the thirties the world was saying " look at those enterprising Germans & their manufacturing miracle how they deserve to catch up with the rest of us" then some crack pot leadership decided they were strong enough to start expanding their borders somewhat, sound familiar?
China is reaching the point where it's own crack pot leadership has decided they are now strong enough to flex their muscles & people seem to think it's a good idea to let them carry on, it will end in misery take my word for it!

That’s a very extreme view, and China would not last long if they looked like they were going to do what Germany did.
For me seeing some peasant farmer have, access to what we take for granted every day seems like your reaction is over kill they are not building weapons they are building power stations and roads water systems all the basics we take for granted.
With our modern world they have no chance to secretly build an arsenal that they could surprise us with. They are building power stations not weapons factories.

 

[Dave645]

Don’t disagree with you there. I am not making the case for China to export to us.
I am only saying that they wish to develop and we are not going to stop them. Same for India Africa etc.I would be quite happy not to buy anything from China but there is often little choice

There is choice but consumers choose the lowest cost which is often from China. Not always but often.

 

[banjo]

Historical measurements matter and those who are saying it’s warmed this year are actually spreading fake news, ( tenths of a degree not a whole )
how sad of them !

 

[Dave645]

Historical measurements matter and those who are saying it’s warmed this year are actually spreading fake news, ( tenths of a degree not a whole )
how sad of them !View attachment 956350

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-energy-review-2020/global-energy-and-co2-emissions-in-2020
you don’t have to look far to find one possible reason that temps dropped.
And they say it’s not man made. . .
while we used less energy and burned far less fuel to move around and produced far less Co2 its a shock that temps fell. . .

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/202102

a full report of Feb not just one graph of one measurement location.

Its facts like you share that given me hope we can limit climate change and all the talk of, saying we can do nothing so why bother, is bull crap.
what we do has an effect because it is on a vast scale, so we can directly effect climate change. Your chart and mine prove it. The very fact renewables take energy out of our planets atmosphere wind and solar and that it has a growing effect, and the reductions in energy use and Co2 emissions has contributed to a blip in or climate is a good thing. I will happily take a blip in the right direction any time. If you know of some other reason for the blip let me know, please supply actual data for the blip if it’s not us. Like a measured decease in the suns energy reaching earth and the measurements etc, to back up that claim.

 

[GeorgeC1]

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-energy-review-2020/global-energy-and-co2-emissions-in-2020
you don’t have to look far to find one possible reason that temps dropped.
And they say it’s not man made. . .
while we used less energy and burned far less fuel to move around and produced far less Co2 its a shock that temps fell. . .

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/202102

a full report of Feb not just one graph of one measurement location.

Its facts like you share that given me hope we can limit climate change and all the talk of, saying we can do nothing so why bother, is bull crap.
what we do has an effect because it is on a vast scale, so we can directly effect climate change. Your chart and mine prove it. The very fact renewables take energy out of our planets atmosphere wind and solar and that it has a growing effect, and the reductions in energy use and Co2 emissions has contributed to a blip in or climate is a good thing. I will happily take a blip in the right direction any time. If you know of some other reason for the blip let me know, please supply actual data for the blip if it’s not us. Like a measured decease in the suns energy reaching earth and the measurements etc, to back up that claim.

Also manmade climate change doesn't mean just heating up, it also means for Western Europe colder winters even if the atlantic water currents get infused with fresh water from the melting ice meaning they carry less heat due to being less salty.

 

[Mouser]

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-energy-review-2020/global-energy-and-co2-emissions-in-2020
you don’t have to look far to find one possible reason that temps dropped.
And they say it’s not man made. . .
while we used less energy and burned far less fuel to move around and produced far less Co2 its a shock that temps fell. . .

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/202102

a full report of Feb not just one graph of one measurement location.

Its facts like you share that given me hope we can limit climate change and all the talk of, saying we can do nothing so why bother, is bull crap.
what we do has an effect because it is on a vast scale, so we can directly effect climate change. Your chart and mine prove it. The very fact renewables take energy out of our planets atmosphere wind and solar and that it has a growing effect, and the reductions in energy use and Co2 emissions has contributed to a blip in or climate is a good thing. I will happily take a blip in the right direction any time. If you know of some other reason for the blip let me know, please supply actual data for the blip if it’s not us. Like a measured decease in the suns energy reaching earth and the measurements etc, to back up that claim.

So a 4% reduction in world energy consumption can set us back half a degree? What's all this talk of net zero for then? Seems a bit extreme.