The Hidden Half of Nature by David Montgomery & Anne Bilke

[Simon C]

Thanks @Richard III , just finished reading it myself as well, learnt all sorts of things I had not heard before. No bacteria in the stomach because it's too acidic, the're all in the colon and they are pretty much the same ones that you need in the soil to digest food for plants. This is why animals are good at cycling digestive biology around the farm. I think what amazed them was how quickly they transformed their dirt garden into beautiful, productive top soil with just compost, what they achieved in three years, nature seems to take hundreds, very encouraging, I thought.

 

[Richard III]

I have a friend who was very interested in no-till, cover cropping, soil biology etc. and then became interested in gut biology. He sent me this talk as a quick way of dipping into it:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_knight_how_our_microbes_make_us_who_we_are?language=en

Having just taken a course of antibiotics, and whilst still on pain killers that seem to mess around with the digestive system, I was trying to work out what I should do to get things back to normal order. From the talk it looks like children did recover a typical gut biology after antibiotics without any need for what the human equivalent of innoculants are (fecal pellets probably).

Reading a book does not make me an expert on the gut, but I wouldn't worry too much. Most people need more prebiotics, not probiotics. No point in putting the right bacteria in place if there is the wrong environment and no food for them when they get there. Same out in the field, feed the soil, not chuck pots of bugs on degraded soil and expect them to work. People who work on farms must get exposed to a much greater variety of bacteria than office workers anyway.

I would recommend you do the same as your friend and spend some of your study time reading up on the gut, when you understand what is going on you are much more likely to eat the foods that are good for you. The disease and health issues it could help you avoid one day are becoming more and more apparent, the payback for you could be huge.

 

[mikep]

This is the problem I am toying with at the moment regarding our soil biology. We can keep applying good biology with compost, compost teas and all these biologicals but if conditions aren't right, they won't last long. But we can also create the right conditions and give them some food, (molasses, humic and fulvic acids etc.) and then just leave our natural native biology to grow and take over.

The trouble is we are always knocking the good stuff back with chemicals and nitrogen, but by how much, we really don't know. There will always be a certain amount of everything that survives, ready to re-collonise under the right conditions.

I have tried just about everything there is regarding soil biology inoculation and feeding but the only one that makes me stand back and say "wow, that is amazing" is my own, best made compost, even when applied at very low rates. Compost is everything, it is an inoculation, it provides food for microbes and unlike anything else it provides and safe home for them while growing and re-colonising. Using everything else just seems to be based on theory, not backed up by trials results and done because it feels the right thing to do.

I am not trying to knock anyone, there are some really good people in this country pushing ideas and products, but we have a whole lot to learn yet about what works and what doesn't.

I really believe that the problem lies not in the soil but in the seed bag. There is no point in making a nice bed for bugs if the plant cant benefit and modern varieties cant neither can old varieties. The only way you will see a real benefit is with a landrace where the differing types are not symbiotic but complimentary. We have developed a system whereby the soil is only a support and almost hydroponic medium and varieties to suit. You will never make a landrace with modern varieties and with the older landraces you have a yield cap of 30-40 cwt/ac.
Proper plant breeding will be needed to achieve this so I am sure we can rely on the multinationals to help, cant we?

 

[Deereone]

Be careful what you wish for; I transformed my heavy clay soil, by using copious quantities of manure, now I have mole hills everywhere (thanks to the massive increase in the worm population). So now have the fear of listeria in the silage.

 

[Feldspar]

I really believe that the problem lies not in the soil but in the seed bag. There is no point in making a nice bed for bugs if the plant cant benefit and modern varieties cant neither can old varieties. The only way you will see a real benefit is with a landrace where the differing types are not symbiotic but complimentary. We have developed a system whereby the soil is only a support and almost hydroponic medium and varieties to suit. You will never make a landrace with modern varieties and with the older landraces you have a yield cap of 30-40 cwt/ac.
Proper plant breeding will be needed to achieve this so I am sure we can rely on the multinationals to help, cant we?

This is a good paper on the need for different thinking in crop breeding to allow crops to make use of more biologically active soils:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378429008000051

 

[Barleycorn]

Thanks for this. Montgomery wrote dirt which I enjoyed. I see that it's available on Audible so something worth listening to on the tractor, if you can put up with the accent!

 

[mikep]

This is a good paper on the need for different thinking in crop breeding to allow crops to make use of more biologically active soils:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378429008000051

Thanks i will try to read it but i find my eyelids get heavy sometimes when confronted with too much info. I just work with logic. Wheats 200 years ago grew 4-5ft tall and had a root mass three times that of a modern variety. They grew away from weeds and could scavenge better than modern oats, being a landrace there were some that were resistant to rust and some resistant to mildew so you always got something. To me that is enough to say it will take a lot of breeding to get back to a situation whereby a wheat can benefit fully from a biological soil. You cannot put an ancient landrace into a modern system as it has aclimatised to a diferent set of circumstances, a modern wheat would fail in an old system as it has not got the toolkit to survive.

 

[Feldspar]

Thanks i will try to read it but i find my eyelids get heavy sometimes when confronted with too much info. I just work with logic. Wheats 200 years ago grew 4-5ft tall and had a root mass three times that of a modern variety. They grew away from weeds and could scavenge better than modern oats, being a landrace there were some that were resistant to rust and some resistant to mildew so you always got something. To me that is enough to say it will take a lot of breeding to get back to a situation whereby a wheat can benefit fully from a biological soil. You cannot put an ancient landrace into a modern system as it has aclimatised to a diferent set of circumstances, a modern wheat would fail in an old system as it has not got the toolkit to survive.

Even just the abstract makes the general point quite succinctly. PM for details of the whole article.

 

[Barleycorn]

There must still be a few unadalterated strains of traditional wheat being grown somewhere in the world, such as Eastern Europe etc?
I tried growing some from a local thatcher, but it wasn't very successful.

 

[Louis Mc]

How about just continually home saving the same seed until it breeds it self into something more suited to your soil. I believe it's a permaculture principle

 

[mikep]

There must still be a few unadalterated strains of traditional wheat being grown somewhere in the world, such as Eastern Europe etc?
I tried growing some from a local thatcher, but it wasn't very successful.

There are but as I say the yield is so low you would need to sell at double the price to stand still.

 

[mikep]

How about just continually home saving the same seed until it breeds it self into something more suited to your soil. I believe it's a permaculture principle

Man has but three score years and ten so no that would not work. A modern wheat is bred very well with selected crosses from other varieties. Wheat generally breeds true so you would be relying on the very small diffences that you get within varieties and how do you get tall wheat from a semi dwarf? Maris widgeon is the oldest variety grown on any scale and it is recognisably a modern wheat that is from 1964!

 

[The Ruminant]

Anyone read this book?

I thought the farming bit in it was good and thought provoking, but the information on the biology in our gut has opened up a whole new world of thinking for me.

I found it a little slow to get going, but the further you get into it, the more you understand why they have laid it out like they have. We tend to think of most life forms on this planet as being in competition with each other, it turns out that on a microscopic level in particular, this is far from true. Symbioses between plants and microbes have been developing and become increasingly refined almost as long as plants have existed and the same applies with animals. It would seem that our broad shot kill the bad guy's approach to dealing with pests and diseases could do with reviewing somewhat. Then the effect our recent (last 50 years) diet changes have had on our gut biota and the subsequent the spin off effects on our bodies is truly shocking.

Best to read it for yourself though, then make your own mind up.

Downloaded a sample, enjoyed it and have just downloaded the rest of the book. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[EchoesFromThePast]

I have tried just about everything there is regarding soil biology inoculation and feeding but the only one that makes me stand back and say "wow, that is amazing" is my own, best made compost, even when applied at very low rates. Compost is everything, it is an inoculation, it provides food for microbes and unlike anything else it provides and safe home for them while growing and re-colonising. Using everything else just seems to be based on theory, not backed up by trials results and done because it feels the right thing to do.

What kind of raw material do you use for making your compost ?

 

[Simon C]

What kind of raw material do you use for making your compost ?

Horse muck from local riding stables. Haulage is the killer and even at 4 tons/acre, what I can get hold of doesn't cover many acres each year. I have some new ideas in the pipeline involving other waste products which would mix with the muck to produce the right biology, but in much bigger quantities.

 

[Pasty]

Will have a look at this. My family has a history of reflux so most of us are on those drugs that stop your stomach producing acid. Stops us getting cancer further up but I can't see it's a good thing. I wonder if there is a way to beat it naturally. Veg is our next project and the removal of sugar and processed foods as far as possible (bacon aside as it is required in my religion). I can't see why anyone should have any kind of imbalance if they are living a natural life. But many of us seem to, me included. I hate taking these pills and limit it as far as possible although the doc says just pop one every day without fail. As they do.

Feel well in myself at the moment, just suffer a bit of stiffness in the morning but I'm told that it's normal and nothing to be ashamed of. I do worry about what long term effects these drugs are going to have. Wife gets IBS too and although she eats lots of veg, is as prone to chokky as I am to vino.

 

[mikep]

An awful lot of modern 'problems' such as gluten intolerance are a result of our diet being out of kilter with our bodies needs. this is not always a bad diet as one would imagine but the fact that some of our staples have changed in ways that is not apparent or obvious but subtley in their chemical make up.
Consider a manual worker years ago, their dietry requirements could be up to 8000 calories a day (yes that's right) of which the majority came from bread. Now you imagine if you could possibly eat 1500 calories from wheat today without being crippled? Most people get bloated with too much bread or cereals and the reason is that the gluten make up has changed to a form less suited to our bodies.
I would hazard an educated guess that the same applies to many other foods and this is the problem where by neither organic nor low input farming can help as the crops are the same varieties.
The agricultural revolution may have increased yields tremendously but unfortunately as an unintended consequence the staff of life is becoming more of a walking stick.

 

[Richard III]

My family has a history of reflux so most of us are on those drugs that stop your stomach producing acid. Stops us getting cancer further up but I can't see it's a good thing.

My better half suffers badly with reflux, and has been on max dose prescription strength proton pump inhibitors for many years. She has been to a NHS specialist about it, and as you say, he said just keep popping the tablets and don't worry about it.

I've done some reading on the subject and PPI use for reflux raises the stomach acidity and this then allows bacteria to pass through the stomach that normally wouldn't. This makes you much more susceptible to developing a bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine (SIBO). Apparently 50% of people who have take PPI's for more than 18 months test positive for SIBO, then just take a look at the symptoms of SIBO! and our doctor hasn't even heard of the condition. My other half is now seeing a functional nutritionist to see if some of her issues can be sorted.

A friend who read the book now drinks Kefir, his wife suffers from reflux and the Kefir has helped her.

 

[shakerator]

My better half suffers badly with reflux, and has been on max dose prescription strength proton pump inhibitors for many years. She has been to a NHS specialist about it, and as you say, he said just keep popping the tablets and don't worry about it.

I've done some reading on the subject and PPI use for reflux raises the stomach acidity and this then allows bacteria to pass through the stomach that normally wouldn't. This makes you much more susceptible to developing a bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine (SIBO). Apparently 50% of people who have take PPI's for more than 18 months test positive for SIBO, then just take a look at the symptoms of SIBO! and our doctor hasn't even heard of the condition. My other half is now seeing a functional nutritionist to see if some of her issues can be sorted.

A friend who read the book now drinks Kefir, his wife suffers from reflux and the Kefir has helped her.

Try fennel richard ?

 

[martian]

There's a very interesting interview in the current issue of Acres USA with Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride who has developed a system called GAPS (Gut and Psychology Syndrome) after having a child with autism. She cured the child, and hundreds more apparently, with a decent diet and rebuilding the gut. Here's a link to part of her website if anyone is interested:
http://www.gaps.me/?page_id=20
She has it in for Statins in particular and loves cholesterol. My kind of girl. It turns out that practically everything wrong with the modern world is down to rubbish over-processed food. Makes sense to me. The generation being born now are expected to have a shorter life-expectancy than their parents. That suggests that something is badly wrong.