The Ineos Grenadier thread

[ollie989898]

Sadly it’s not built for farmers or business users to claim back the vat, lower BIK . It’s built for egos and Chelsea set which they will make more money out of . Sat in one at Cornwall show. Poor chap showing me had no ideas . He was an adventurer hired in for the day by then. pee poor

Exactly, if you can afford to sponk the money on the thing, it's hardly a deal breaker having to pay the VAT on one.

 

[mf7480]

Exactly, if you can afford to sponk the money on the thing, it's hardly a deal breaker having to pay the VAT on one.

What a silly statement

 

[ollie989898]

This is what puzzled me with the Ineos claim that they met commercial vehicle classification in the first place.
Why did they make the obviously dubious claim that they were classed as ‘commercial vehicles’ on the UK website to start with? I reckon that someone hasn’t got a clue as to what they are doing. There’s no way that they will get any significant commercial/utility type sales when subject to luxury car tax and a very significant hike in road fund license for many years when they are classed as, well, ‘luxury cars’.

Someone at Ineos has made a massive massive mistake and the whole concept of their five seat ‘commercial’ is completely blown out of the water if the above is correct. If so, and it makes total sense to me, then it means I knew more about what qualifies as a commercial vehicle for tax purposes than Ineos engineers and marketing. It doesn’t inspire confidence in the company’s management at all.

It will absolutely and certainly mean that if those conditions hold, I will cancel and want my deposit back. This is where I expressed my surprise at the Ineos claim...
#175

In reality they will sell these things to rich morons who don't know what the fudge 'commercial' means except it makes you more like GI Joe if you own one. They will still sell more vehicles than they can possibly make in the right time frame anyway because: 'awwwwwww, wow, a modern Defender!' type mindset.

It is a luxury car anyway in all but name, lets be honest. I personally think this thing has all the hallmarks of the McClaren supercar relaunch but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Robt]

Exactly, if you can afford to sponk the money on the thing, it's hardly a deal breaker having to pay the VAT on one.

You don’t spend money unless you have to! It’s going to be a 40-60k vehicle. Hardly elite

 

[ollie989898]

You don’t spend money unless you have to! It’s going to be a 40-60k vehicle. Hardly elite

I'm afraid I have precisely zero sympathy for those so afflicted.

 

[Robt]

But it’s not a rich man’s car. That’s my point.

 

[mf7480]

Sour grapes

 

[Cowabunga]

In reality they will sell these things to rich morons who don't know what the fudge 'commercial' means except it makes you more like GI Joe if you own one. They will still sell more vehicles than they can possibly make in the right time frame anyway because: 'awwwwwww, wow, a modern Defender!' type mindset.

It is a luxury car anyway in all but name, lets be honest. I personally think this thing has all the hallmarks of the McClaren supercar relaunch but I hope I'm wrong.

It would not be a luxury car to me. It would be a farm workhorse instead of the Ford Ranger which is has done hard sterling service but which will be nine years of age by the time ‘my’ Grenadier is built.

I’d like to know the Grenadier’s true status sooner rather than later and to that end I’ve sent an enquiry direct to the Grenadier team.
If it is not a commercial then I will have no hesitation cancelling and ordering the newly launched and much upgraded Ford Ranger pickup which will probably be available in the UK late this year.

 

[ollie989898]

Sour grapes

Not at all. Why in the fudge would I care what anyone spends their money on? I envy no man, I just have a passing interest in the motor industry. I do however, chuckle inside when I see folk venting their spleen on twitter to complain their car will be more expensive than they intended and so they throw their toys out of the pram and refuse to buy one. I think that is pretty amusing behaviour from a grown adult in fact.

 

[ollie989898]

But it’s not a rich man’s car. That’s my point.

It's more expensive and unnecessary than the average family saloon? And again, if you are willing to spend that kind of money on a vehicle to do the work of a pick up, again, you've more money than sense.

 

[Cowabunga]

It's more expensive and unnecessary than the average family saloon? And again, if you are willing to spend that kind of money on a vehicle to do the work of a pick up, again, you've more money than sense.

You could have said the same thing about every single Land Rover Defender back to the Series1 ever produced. Thus your assertion is absolute twaddle.

 

[ollie989898]

You could have said the same thing about every single Land Rover Defender back to the Series1 ever produced. Thus your assertion is absolute twaddle.

It's not an assertion, it's an opinion and thus carries equal weight as your own.

What competitors were available to the Defender when it was first introduced? I'd hazard a guess it made a lot more sense as a utility vehicle back then.

 

[Cowabunga]

It's not an assertion, it's an opinion and thus carries equal weight as your own.

What competitors were available to the Defender when it was first introduced? I'd hazard a guess it made a lot more sense as a utility vehicle back then.

It is a totally erroneous opinion. There were all kinds of pickups plus the Daihatsu vans and pickups, Subaru, and by the time coil sprung Land Rovers came along in 1983 there were four wheel drive versions of both well established Nissan and Toyota pickups. The Land Rover always sold for a substantial premium above these. Perhaps all the Land Rovers were bought by rich numpties to show off, but I know they were not. I bought my 110 HiCap in 1984 and it was worked exceptionally hard for 22 years. Which would be about 12 years longer than, say, a Mazda pickup would have lasted doing the same work.

 

[Farmer Roy]

isn’t it use that determines Vat qualification ?

a business that operates from a unit here has vat qualifying Lamborghinis and Ferraris - used on experience days

a ford fiesta is vat qualifying if you are a driving instructor or taxi company etc

so as long as your Grenadier is business use only them you can reclaim vat

thats how it works here ( ok, different country, different tax laws I know ), any eligible business use can claim GST back on any items used in the business. Be it paper clips or fertiliser or cars . . . We don’t have any specific agriculture” tax rulings or benefits.

 

[Wombat]

thats how it works here ( ok, different country, different tax laws I know ), any eligible business use can claim GST back on any items used in the business. Be it paper clips or fertiliser or cars . . . We don’t have any specific agriculture” tax rulings or benefits.

It’s not an agriculture specific thing for the vat on commercial.

basically if it’s commercial you can claim all the vat back assuming your personal use is incidental. If it’s more than that you can claim a proportion back based on the personal/ business use and the splitting may only be available on a dual purpose vehicle such as a pickup.

if it’s not classed as commercial then it has to be 100% business use to claim the Vat back. You cannot nip to the shops for a news paper

 

[Farmer Roy]

It’s not an agriculture specific thing for the vat on commercial.

basically if it’s commercial you can claim all the vat back assuming your personal use is incidental. If it’s more than that you can claim a proportion back based on the personal/ business use.

if it’s not classed as commercial then it has to be 100% business use. You cannot nip to the shops for a news paper

so, even if the vehicle ISNT classed as a “commercial” ( as in the Grenadier ), but is used in a VAT registered business, VAT can be claimed, but only if purely 100% business use ?

you can’t split the use personal / business 50 / 50 for example, & claim 50% of the VAT ? Using a log book or some other way of recording use ?

sorry, not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand why it is such a big deal

 

[Wombat]

so, even if the vehicle ISNT classed as a “commercial” ( as in the Grenadier ), but is used in a VAT registered business, VAT can be claimed, but only if purely 100% business use ?

you can’t split the use personal / business 50 / 50 for example, & claim 50% of the VAT ? Using a log book or some other way of recording use ?

sorry, not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand why it is such a big deal

Firsty I am not an expert, but yes that is my understanding of it and how it’s been explained to me. There is no splitting on a none commercial vehicle. It 0 or 100%

I am sure a TFF “expert” and there are many will be a long shortly to say that’s crap

 

[Cowabunga]

Firsty I am not an expert, but yes that is my understanding of it and how it’s been explained to me. There is no splitting on a none commercial vehicle. It 0 or 100%

I am sure a TFF “expert” and there are many will be a long shortly to say that’s crap

You will not legally be allowed to even drive it home from your workplace if you live half a mile from the farmyard. Since even if you get away with claiming all the VAT back, which would be a big risk and not generally acceptable to HMRC, it would still not be classed as a commercial vehicle and would not qualify for tax relief as such or be exempt from the £4000 or whatever the sum is for ‘luxury car tax’ on vehicles costing over £40k. Plus you would have to pay over £500 road tax for a good number of years rather than the approximately £185 commercial vehicle annual rate. I believe there would also be ‘benefit in kind’ tax implications.
As with @mf7480 if it is confirmed that it is not actually a ‘commercial vehicle’ for UK purposes, then I, and I’m sure many others, will be cancelling our order.
No big deal but a bit of a disappointment. Another Ranger will certainly do the job I require of it and more and will certainly meet ALL the legal and taxation requirements for commercial vehicles in the UK.

 

[mf7480]

You will not legally be allowed to even drive it home from your workplace if you live half a mile from the farmyard. Since even if you get away with claiming all the VAT back, which would be a big risk and not generally acceptable to HMRC, it would still not be classed as a commercial vehicle and would not qualify for tax relief as such or be exempt from the £4000 or whatever the sum is for ‘luxury car tax’ on vehicles costing over £40k. Plus you would have to pay over £500 road tax for a good number of years rather than the approximately £185 commercial vehicle annual rate. I believe there would also be ‘benefit in kind’ tax implications.
As with @mf7480 if it is confirmed that it is not actually a ‘commercial vehicle’ for UK purposes, then I, and I’m sure many others, will be cancelling our order.
No big deal but a bit of a disappointment. Another Ranger will certainly do the job I require of it and more and will certainly meet ALL the legal and taxation requirements for commercial vehicles in the UK.

Yes, the cost differential is far greater than that of the VAT.

130% Corporation tax reduction, BIK tax for employer and employee, road tax, luxury car tax, all in addition to the VAT

 

[Tubbylew]

You will not legally be allowed to even drive it home from your workplace if you live half a mile from the farmyard. Since even if you get away with claiming all the VAT back, which would be a big risk and not generally acceptable to HMRC, it would still not be classed as a commercial vehicle and would not qualify for tax relief as such or be exempt from the £4000 or whatever the sum is for ‘luxury car tax’ on vehicles costing over £40k. Plus you would have to pay over £500 road tax for a good number of years rather than the approximately £185 commercial vehicle annual rate. I believe there would also be ‘benefit in kind’ tax implications.
As with @mf7480 if it is confirmed that it is not actually a ‘commercial vehicle’ for UK purposes, then I, and I’m sure many others, will be cancelling our order.
No big deal but a bit of a disappointment. Another Ranger will certainly do the job I require of it and more and will certainly meet ALL the legal and taxation requirements for commercial vehicles in the UK.

They certainly have dropped a massive bollock if it doesn't qualify as commercial, I mean that was the whole point of the entire vanity project wasn't it, to replace the defender with a proper commercial because landrover wouldn't?