The National Interest v. The Cliff Edgers.

[Muck Spreader]

Irish horse meat ???? Is that your default position ? Slag of another country because it makes you feel better , when you cant keep up in a complicated debate ? I used to think that the people who were willing to take the chance and leave and see what happens had guts and ability ,but the more i read some of the posts on TFF over the last few months, from Clive not wanting to buy beer for the Greeks ,to downright boorish small minded comments from others make me realise that i may be wrong.

Welcome to the troglodyte zone

 

[Campbell]

Q] If the free trade world is so inviting for us now, why are we not already dealing with them all. Have the EU prevented us dealing with everyone else.?

 

[Osca]

Irish horse meat ???? Is that your default position ? Slag of another country because it makes you feel better , when you cant keep up in a complicated debate ? I used to think that the people who were willing to take the chance and leave and see what happens had guts and ability ,but the more i read some of the posts on TFF over the last few months, from Clive not wanting to buy beer for the Greeks ,to downright boorish small minded comments from others make me realise that i may be wrong.

I think that reply was for Ashtree's benefit, @Cowcorn. Ashtree's twisted, sneering bitterness and sheer delight in anything that might seem problematic for the UK in these threads provokes a reaction; and if that one reply makes you angry, please realise that we have had to put up with a lot of this sh*te ourselves. My reaction to an over-exposure to this stuff has been just like yours; I no longer buy Irish produce, for a start.

But one of your posts the other night was absolutely great - it was friendly, interested, up for debate - I gave it a "like" because, though you couldn't have known this, it was heart-warming and really reminded me that you can't judge a country by it's needy losers, when independent, decent and friendly is the norm. So please don't take that (or this) amiss. Stay, keep posting, be our window on the real Ireland.

 

[Grass And Grain]

But of more importance - your post is very pertinent. Something I do not understand is the mechanics of WTO rules. All I have seen is odd article and piece written by John Redwood and Rees Mogg saying it is straightforward and a panacea. Which if true makes me wonder why any country bothers with trade deals.

I suppose a bad situation would be the UK in the customs union (therefore accepting NZ lamb), but not in the single market (therefore, we can't easily export to france). That might be a mess for us.

Better in my opinion to be either totally in the single market and customs union, or totally out of it all. I suspect both could work for us, albeit in different ways.

Agreeing to be in the customs union and not been able to leave unless having the consent of the EU would be financial suicide in my opinion. I agree with the brexiteers that this cannot be allowed to happen.

There are a lot of misconceptions on the board about Tariffs
My understanding of WTO rules is that a country can set tariffs if it wants to.
It cannot charge one country more in Tarriffs compared to another unless it has a trade deal with that country.
It need not set a tariff of the maximum level that the WTO allows, but it must set that for all countries it trades with.
There is a huge list of tariffs and manufactured products can be charged by value or weight.
Manufactured products can have a tariff set according to the different products in the final goods.
So the EU can charge 40% on our lamb going to Europe, but we do not have to charge the New Zealanders anything.

however if we charge the NZ boys nothing then we have to accept lamb from the EU with no Tariff, unless we have trade deal registered with NZ.

Personally I wouldn't have thought that the eu would levy such a large tariff on UK lamb when we take such a large amount of eu beef and pork.

It's quite complex though isn't it.

 

[Cowcorn]

I think that reply was for Ashtree's benefit, @Cowcorn. Ashtree's twisted, sneering bitterness and sheer delight in anything that might seem problematic for the UK in these threads provokes a reaction; and if that one reply makes you angry, please realise that we have had to put up with a lot of this sh*te ourselves. My reaction to an over-exposure to this stuff has been just like yours; I no longer buy Irish produce, for a start.

But one of your posts the other night was absolutely great - it was friendly, interested, up for debate - I gave it a "like" because, though you couldn't have known this, it was heart-warming and really reminded me that you can't judge a country by it's needy losers, when independent, decent and friendly is the norm. So please don't take that (or this) amiss. Stay, keep posting, be our window on the real Ireland.

Sorry osca not been a great day, on a bit of a hair trigger and only realised while milking that Caveman was only returning fire at Ash. Ash been Ash likes to dangle the bait and get a reaction. Not my style ,would rather keep things good natured ,and everybody stay friends . One way or another we are all relying on the same things. Oh yeah Caveman the horsemeat was polish but the Meat Baron was defnitely Irish.

 

[Lexion1000]

It appears as though there are 3 options left for the Uk. 1 the soft Brexit, which is completely pointless and leaves us in a far worse place than when we started. 2 the hard Brexit which will completely destroy our economy. 3 Stay in the EU, embarrassment all round, but we’ll probably come out of it ok in the end. So why don’t we just pack it in and try to forget this ridiculous mess ever happened. We’re a global embarrassment right now thanks to Farage and a bunch of Tory back bench morons.

 

[Fragonard]

It appears as though there are 3 options left for the Uk. 1 the soft Brexit, which is completely pointless and leaves us in a far worse place than when we started. 2 the hard Brexit which will completely destroy our economy. 3 Stay in the EU, embarrassment all round, but we’ll probably come out of it ok in the end. So why don’t we just pack it in and try to forget this ridiculous mess ever happened. We’re a global embarrassment right now thanks to Farage and a bunch of Tory back bench morons.

Why?
"Because we voted for it" , and oh, yes "we want our sovereignty back" [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

 

[Muck Spreader]

Q] If the free trade world is so inviting for us now, why are we not already dealing with them all. Have the EU prevented us dealing with everyone else.?

Not at all. If anything the reverse, as the EU already has trade deals with 60 odd other non EU countries. The remainder would be on WTO rules except were the US or the EU have specific embargoes in place, eg, North Korea , Russia, Iran etc.

 

[DrWazzock]

I have always regarded referenda as dangerous things. We see the result now. Democracy is about electing representives to act in your best interests through careful long term consideration, it isn't rule by the collective snapshot opinion of the mob. Hanging would be back if that was the case.

If I was Mrs May I would call a general election and campaign on the basis that we have given Brexit our best shot but now it's time to cancel it and stay in. This way you outmanouvre Jeremy Corbyn, shut the right wing extremists up once and for all, and ditch the DUP. Maybe even ditch the right wing extremists as well and provide a home for the centrists who are abandoned by labour. Let Rees Mogg and the others form a splinter party and see how little support they really get.

And get the country back on track.

 

[Fragonard]

Not at all. If anything the reverse, as the EU already has trade deals with 60 odd other non EU countries. The remainder would be on WTO rules except were the US or the EU have specific embargoes in place, eg, North Korea , Russia, Iran etc.

So u think there will no different rules post brexit for doing trade deals?

 

[Hindsight]

I have always regarded referenda as dangerous things. We see the result now. Democracy is about electing representives to act in your best interests through careful long term consideration, it isn't rule by the collective snapshot opinion of the mob. Hanging would be back if that was the case.

If I was Mrs May I would call a general election and campaign on the basis that we have given Brexit our best shot but now it's time to cancel it and stay in. This way you outmanouvre Jeremy Corbyn, shut the right wing extremists up once and for all, and ditch the DUP. Maybe even ditch the right wing extremists as well and provide a home for the centrists who are abandoned by labour. Let Rees Mogg and the others form a splinter party and see how little support they really get.

And get the country back on track.

First past the post - the UK electoral system. Looks increasingly designed for the 18C - which it was. Thus your theory I doubt will work as anyone of 150 constituencies are marginal to Labour or Tory. Your scenario requires PR of some description. But the electorate turned that offer down (or at least a sort of PR) in the 2011 referendum on AV. So I doubt very much Mrs May wants to go to the country. And why Labour and Mr Corbyn does.

If you missed this programme worth a listen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000178x

 

[turbo]

I have always regarded referenda as dangerous things. We see the result now. Democracy is about electing representives to act in your best interests through careful long term consideration, it isn't rule by the collective snapshot opinion of the mob. Hanging would be back if that was the case.

If I was Mrs May I would call a general election and campaign on the basis that we have given Brexit our best shot but now it's time to cancel it and stay in. This way you outmanouvre Jeremy Corbyn, shut the right wing extremists up once and for all, and ditch the DUP. Maybe even ditch the right wing extremists as well and provide a home for the centrists who are abandoned by labour. Let Rees Mogg and the others form a splinter party and see how little support they really get.

And get the country back on track.

And lose the election,good plan that.
You say referendum are dangerous but is it any more dangerous than ignoring the people of this country which has been done for years

 

[Hindsight]

One constant in this EU farce is the establishments David Dimbleby - reported the result to the nation in 1971, famously said 'We're out' on June 24 2016. Will the BBC afford him the opportunity to report the Meaningful Vote result in December - score hatrick - be brilliant future quiz question if they do.

 

[Exfarmer]

I have always regarded referenda as dangerous things. We see the result now. Democracy is about electing representives to act in your best interests through careful long term consideration, it isn't rule by the collective snapshot opinion of the mob. Hanging would be back if that was the case.

If I was Mrs May I would call a general election and campaign on the basis that we have given Brexit our best shot but now it's time to cancel it and stay in. This way you outmanouvre Jeremy Corbyn, shut the right wing extremists up once and for all, and ditch the DUP. Maybe even ditch the right wing extremists as well and provide a home for the centrists who are abandoned by labour. Let Rees Mogg and the others form a splinter party and see how little support they really get.

And get the country back on track.

While I agree with much of what you say, I believe that any General election at the moment would give Labour a very good chance of getting in , whatever policies, they may decide upon. It is blindingly obvious to the country that the current conservative party could not organise a p*** up in a brewery, and frankly do not deserve another term.
If they had a half sharp leader, i suspect there would be precious few seats safe for any conservative.

 

[Ashtree]

I have always regarded referenda as dangerous things. We see the result now. Democracy is about electing representives to act in your best interests through careful long term consideration, it isn't rule by the collective snapshot opinion of the mob. Hanging would be back if that was the case.

If I was Mrs May I would call a general election and campaign on the basis that we have given Brexit our best shot but now it's time to cancel it and stay in. This way you outmanouvre Jeremy Corbyn, shut the right wing extremists up once and for all, and ditch the DUP. Maybe even ditch the right wing extremists as well and provide a home for the centrists who are abandoned by labour. Let Rees Mogg and the others form a splinter party and see how little support they really get.

And get the country back on track.

Well said.

 

[fudge]

And lose the election,good plan that.
You say referendum are dangerous but is it any more dangerous than ignoring the people of this country which has been done for years

In end democracy must allow people to change their minds. Jo Johnson argued that at the referendum the electorate were sold a false prospectus. Surely he is correct on that at least. As to your point about people being ignored for years I completely agree with you. Proper proportional representation addresses that in way simplistic yes or no referendums cannot. How can 4 million Ukip. votes producing no representation parliament be a good thing for democracy?

 

[Hindsight]

In end democracy must allow people to change their minds. Jo Johnson argued that at the referendum the electorate were sold a false prospectus. Surely he is correct on that at least. As to your point about people being ignored for years I completely agree with you. Proper proportional representation addresses that in way simplistic yes or no referendums cannot. How can 4 million Ukip. votes producing no representation parliament be a good thing for democracy?

If UKIP had been represented in Parliament which a true PR system would have allowed then the debate which is now going on would have been held over the past 15 years. And thus the true pros and cons would have been aired many times in a forum we all come across. Instead it was pent up frustration.

The European Republics tend to have PR - we look on at the rise of populist parties in Germany Sweden etc with horror or saying we told you so - depending on ones point of view. But their system at least lets the boil be lanced as once in power often these parties with more extreme views find it ain't so easy compared to shouting from the sidelines.

Anyway we ain't seen nothing yet to the future when poor employment prospects, low pay etc, etc encourage more Africans to 'get on their bike' to paraphrase Sir Kieth and head north.

 

[Exfarmer]

On your byke , was The now Lord Tebbut

 

[Joe]

If UKIP had been represented in Parliament which a true PR system would have allowed then the debate which is now going on would have been held over the past 15 years. And thus the true pros and cons would have been aired many times in a forum we all come across. Instead it was pent up frustration.

The European Republics tend to have PR - we look on at the rise of populist parties in Germany Sweden etc with horror or saying we told you so - depending on ones point of view. But their system at least lets the boil be lanced as once in power often these parties with more extreme views find it ain't so easy compared to shouting from the sidelines.

Anyway we ain't seen nothing yet to the future when poor employment prospects, low pay etc, etc encourage more Africans to 'get on their bike' to paraphrase Sir Kieth and head north.

100% on PR, it gives a voice and more than often once that voice is heard the unworthy voices are toddled off into the past. I remember an argument, think here around PR during the last UK election and it was discussed that how could you govern without one party majorities that first past the post gives. You govern through coalition and negotiation, sometimes you get short governments (Italians exception) but in the main they last.

 

[Hindsight]

On your byke , was The now Lord Tebbut

Apologies, well corrected - must make sure this thread stands up to scrutiny! Yes my error - goodness that error would have got me shot in a quiz! Sir Kieth was the Education man if I recall.