The Red Tractor ACCS referendum

[Grass And Grain]

From SQC website...

Scottish Quality Crops is a company limited by guarantee and the members of the company are:

National Farmers Union of Scotland;
Agricultural Industries Confederation;
Scottish Flour Millers Association;
Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society;
Maltsters Association of Great Britain;
The Scotch Whisky Association;
The Malt Distillers Association of Scotland and
SRUC (Scottish Agricultural College).


What does the above mean? Am I right in thinking AIC seem to be involved with SQC, and I also seem to think they have 2 x board members on the RT Cereals board. That's nice.

If we/AHDB come up with a perfectly logical simplified scheme which equals or goes slightly beyond AIC imported standards, then will AIC accept it? Or will AIC only allow schemes with which they've seemingly (if I haven't misunderstood) got some involvement with.

I may, indeed, have misunderstood the association here, but the water is looking a bit muddy to me.

If AIC can't accept a reasonable suggestion for a simplified scheme, then my mind would be asking myself why?

 

[SilliamWhale]

From SQC website...

Scottish Quality Crops is a company limited by guarantee and the members of the company are:

National Farmers Union of Scotland;
Agricultural Industries Confederation;
Scottish Flour Millers Association;
Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society;
Maltsters Association of Great Britain;
The Scotch Whisky Association;
The Malt Distillers Association of Scotland and
SRUC (Scottish Agricultural College).


What does the above mean? Am I right in thinking AIC seem to be involved with SQC, and I also seem to think they have 2 x board members on the RT Cereals board. That's nice.

If we/AHDB come up with a perfectly logical simplified scheme which equals or goes slightly beyond AIC imported standards, then will AIC accept it? Or will AIC only allow schemes with which they've seemingly (if I haven't misunderstood) got some involvement with.

I may, indeed, have misunderstood the association here, but the water is looking a bit muddy to me.

If AIC can't accept a reasonable suggestion for a simplified scheme, then my mind would be asking myself why?

The reason why is because they already have a scheme that works for them for free

 

[DrWazzock]

The thing that upsets me most about RT is the implication that we can’t be trusted without RT looking over our shoulder. You get this feeling when you see that RT mark in a supermarket that they are saying to the customers “Don’t worry, we know farmers are cowboys, but we have sent our bloke round to check him out.”
Thirty years ago when these schemes started my father had great difficulty dealing with the inspector as it was the first time in his career that somebody wouldn’t take his word for anything or rely on his reputation built over decades with the merchants. It seemed an afront that we were digging out bits of paper to “prove” this and that when we and the merchants all knew full well who sent in the loads full of rat sh!t. It wasn’t us, but we were being turned over anyway. So really that was the day for us when trust in the producer and relationships built up with customers finally died.
It wasn’t a case of trusting any farmer now, we were all guilty until we could prove ourselves innocent with a bit of paper.
I wonder though what sort of assurance regime the supermarkets themselves endure? Are they questioned about whether they use any products that arise from modern day slavery around the world? Do we know that they are paying producers properly to allow them a decent living wage? Do they record every time they wipe down the shelves or clean out the refrigerators. Do they have waste transfer licences for all the stuff they throw away and a risk assessment for the store? Really we as customers don’t know for sure. We take it on trust. Why can’t they?

 

[DrWazzock]

Perhaps we as farmers should audit supermarkets on aspects such as how quickly and how well they pay suppliers. We could then award them a sticky label with a green shopping trolley on it if they meet what we as producers consider to be ethical standards on imports, the environment and anything else we could dream up. We could then run a national advertising campaign to tell shoppers not to buy from supermarkets who haven’t been awarded green trolley status. See how they like their market disappearing at the stroke of a pen.

 

[Grass And Grain]

The thing that upsets me most about RT is the implication that we can’t be trusted without RT looking over our shoulder. You get this feeling when you see that RT mark in a supermarket that they are saying to the customers “Don’t worry, we know farmers are cowboys, but we have sent our bloke round to check him out.”
Thirty years ago when these schemes started my father had great difficulty dealing with the inspector as it was the first time in his career that somebody wouldn’t take his word for anything or rely on his reputation built over decades with the merchants. It seemed an afront that we were digging out bits of paper to “prove” this and that when we and the merchants all knew full well who sent in the loads full of rat sh!t. It wasn’t us, but we were being turned over anyway. So really that was the day for us when trust in the producer and relationships built up with customers finally died.
It wasn’t a case of trusting any farmer now, we were all guilty until we could prove ourselves innocent with a bit of paper.
I wonder though what sort of assurance regime the supermarkets themselves endure? Are they questioned about whether they use any products that arise from modern day slavery around the world? Do we know that they are paying producers properly to allow them a decent living wage? Do they record every time they wipe down the shelves or clean out the refrigerators. Do they have waste transfer licences for all the stuff they throw away and a risk assessment for the store? Really we as customers don’t know for sure. We take it on trust. Why can’t they?

Makes you think if us farmers should play them at their own game. We'll only accept feed from a UFAS/AIC mill if it passes our assurance standards. Therefore AIC need to join our scheme, pay us a big joining fee, and be inspected by us. If they fail, we won't pass feed from a UFAS mill as being assured to our standards.

 

[Grass And Grain]

@DrWazzock great minds think alike.

 

[ploughman1963]

From SQC website...

Scottish Quality Crops is a company limited by guarantee and the members of the company are:

National Farmers Union of Scotland;
Agricultural Industries Confederation;
Scottish Flour Millers Association;
Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society;
Maltsters Association of Great Britain;
The Scotch Whisky Association;
The Malt Distillers Association of Scotland and
SRUC (Scottish Agricultural College).


What does the above mean? Am I right in thinking AIC seem to be involved with SQC, and I also seem to think they have 2 x board members on the RT Cereals board. That's nice.

If we/AHDB come up with a perfectly logical simplified scheme which equals or goes slightly beyond AIC imported standards, then will AIC accept it? Or will AIC only allow schemes with which they've seemingly (if I haven't misunderstood) got some involvement with.

I may, indeed, have misunderstood the association here, but the water is looking a bit muddy to me.

If AIC can't accept a reasonable suggestion for a simplified scheme, then my mind would be asking myself why?

If AIC accept the SQC with its less onerous sprayer mot requirements then they are being very disingenuous by saying they wont accept lower standards - they already are if they are accepting SQC assured grain - but we know that already because they are happy to accept imported grain produced to lower standards

 

[Grass And Grain]

If AIC accept the SQC with its less onerous sprayer mot requirements then they are being very disingenuous by saying they wont accept lower standards - they already are if they are accepting SQC assured grain - but we know that already because they are happy to accept imported grain produced to lower standards

If AIC are involved with SQC, rhen guess what is going to happen next to SQC sprayer testing intervals?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Makes you think if us farmers should play them at their own game. We'll only accept feed from a UFAS/AIC mill if it passes our assurance standards. Therefore AIC need to join our scheme, pay us a big joining fee, and be inspected by us. If they fail, we won't pass feed from a UFAS mill as being assured to our standards.

Well it does make me wonder how an assured livestock man can accept non assured feed from the mill?

 

[MrNoo]

Thirty years ago when these schemes started my father had great difficulty dealing with the inspector as it was the first time in his career that somebody wouldn’t take his word for anything or rely on his reputation built over decades with the merchants.

Snap, same with mine, in fact he completely "blew up" at the inspector, stating he wasnt having some idiot questioning his every move. I had to usher him out and told him to bugger off for the morning. Our first ever inspection

 

[DrWazzock]

I suppose one important aspect of the whole thing is that the producer / customer relationship of old and the due diligence taken particularly by the customer to check out his sources has been replaced by a third party intermediary paid for by the producer. I suppose it’s a result of the decline of localism. Merchants are often now just a voice on a telephone many miles away. The thing is though when they visited personally to have a look round and a cuppa the time and travelling was at their own expense. Now we pay for it . There has been a shift of the burden in that respect.
And I’ve said from the start, if RT was just a basic scheme to weed out the cowboys I’d be happy with it. It’s the creeping add ins that bug me and the use of the scheme to impose more and more subjective and in the future who knows even political views onto suppliers. And all backed up by the very real threat that they will close you out of markets at the stroke of a pen if you don’t comply.
I really do find it insidious.

 

[Henarar]

Snap, same with mine, in fact he completely "blew up" at the inspector, stating he wasnt having some idiot questioning his every move. I had to usher him out and told him to bugger off for the morning. Our first ever inspection

Your Dad was right, you should have told the inspector to bugger off and so should everyone else

 

[traineefarmer]

I’m pretty sick of this Thatcherite “customer is king” legacy. It’s time to turn the tables. The producer deserves respect too. There has to be some trust. We are not here to trampled and interrogated to the nth degree. A lot of things we are asked to divulge are nobody else’s damn business.
If all producers said we aren’t doing RT any more then what exactly could the supermarkets do about it? Stamp their feet? Throw a tantrum? No, they would just have to suck up it and be thankful for what they could get. About time they learned that lesson and wound it in.

I don't think there is anything "Thatcherite" about Red Tractor. That period of Conservatism was very much about free market politics and deregulation of the economy. RT is protectionist, controlling and highly insular.

 

[Old apprentice]

SilI am whale said regarding imported products.
When I was having first asurance asesment I brought this up with assessor at the time he was from the milk buyer, before rt total strangle hold. He said dont ask the question keep quiet. From that I under stud it was not assured.

 

[DrWazzock]

I don't think there is anything "Thatcherite" about Red Tractor. That period of Conservatism was very much about free market politics and deregulation of the economy. RT is protectionist, controlling and highly insular.

Not so sure it wasn’t more about transferring state owned assets to ever larger corporate business. Schemes such as RT, no matter how well they were intended have finished up as just another tool of the big monopolies to exert their control back down the chain. It’s our fault of course. If we had never sold out or signed up we wouldn’t be where we are today. And it’s almost unstoppable now. I can’t see any way of stopping it in fact other than direct sales and setting up your own shop / retail business in all honesty. Energy would probably be better spent in that direction than banging on the closed bedroom door of the NFU and green grocers.

 

[DrWazzock]

Just wait till they insist on a carbon audit and a tractor emissions test etc etc etc. Thin end of the wedge at the moment.

 

[Clive]

Exactly . We are red tractors customers. They are not supplying us with what we want .

exactly this - fundamentally Red tractor have forgotten who their customer is ......... Farmers

they are placing FAR too much importance on what the NFU (owner/ creator) , processors, merchants and retailers want .................. none of who are their paying customers unlike us, farmers

 

[Clive]

Just wait till they insist on a carbon audit and a tractor emissions test etc etc etc. Thin end of the wedge at the moment.

once they become a ELMS condition as Jim Mosley has said they would like Carbon will be their next aim I'm sure of it

carbon will be valuable BUT if anyone can find a way of giving it away it will be Red Tractor !

 

[Clive]

Never been a farm assurance inspector. Said it many times.

I'm just amazed that it is being claimed that Scottish RT assured farmers are operating to lower standards than English ones. Am I reading this right @Grass And Grain ?

3 yr vs yearly sprayer testing is a rather tangible example surely?

 

[Chickcatcher]

An around the corner bit, as no response from pig and poultry thread.
Pig and Poultry have recently had email from EA stating that they are changing 2 permit variation's and charging us for each @£380. God knows how we make the declarations they are going to want!