The urge to grow

[Macsky]

Life would be a bit dull if everyone was perfectly content with what they've got?

‘Perfectly content’ sounds pretty good to me.

 

[ollie989898]

People generally retire too late, that’s the problem . They are too old and knackered to do much else.
Retiring from farming in my early 60s has been a breath of fresh air .

70 is not old and 60 certainly is not, either.

Even in old age you need a schedule and a reason to get out of bed.

If you don't use your brain and skeleton daily- it'll decline a lot faster.

 

[Henarar]

Do better not more.

Warning: some elements of this post are a bit of a rant.

I think many if not all farmers assume that they need to grow their business. The mentality is that if you are not expanding, then you are standing still or even going backwards.

Where does this notion come from?

Take it to the logical extreme and you would end up with one bloody great business farming the whole country.

It's actually mania.... a kind of madness and an example of where the human race has gone completely doolally over the past two centuries. This is not the natural state of humanity. Yes there has always been competition between neighbours, but that has usually been for a resource that was needed by both parties. Now it just seems to be a dogmatic belief in "growth."

There's only one thing that grows continuously in nature. It's called a cancer and it eventually kills the host.

The endless competition with neighbours for an extra 200 acres, so we can drive down our marginal cost of production. All it does is slowly corrode our selling price and create one dimensional farm jobs lugging slurry all day or driving a cultivator all day instead of the quite enjoyable and varied life on a small farm doing all sorts of different things.

I know, I know, it's "progress." "You've got to get on."

Just remember people, you can't take it with you, and 100 years after you're dead no one will be able remember your achievements.

Enjoy your weekend people, you might drop dead tomorrow.

Spose we have expanded acreage wise but I am not sure how it happened, didn't go looking for it.

 

[ollie989898]

I can think of famers who could pick up another 200 acres and would do a good job or continue to do a good job of what they do. You'd never know they had it.

There will no doubt be others who if they got 200 acres they wouldn't know themselves and wouldn't really be able to farm it properly or get the maximum benefit out of it.

 

[som farmer]

No need to apologise, but I too am not making myself as clear as I should and your comment illustrates what I was referring to. A destination is a fixed point, increasing scale is a process, if you accept a process as a destination then it follows that you must accept that the process should ideally go on indefinitely as there is no destination (or goal) or end point. If someone believes that you must increase scale to survive ( ie to compete, and if you don't compete your business / farm dies) then. There is some logic in the in statement "to reach my goal I must first survive", but if the only way to survive is constant increases in scale then it allows that only a few will succeed as that process depends on the failure of the many to allow the success of the few. I suppose what I'm driving at is the notion that expansion is a phase of a life cycle, it cannot go on for ever, and whilst I am definitely not against expansion, I do not see it as a goal in itself, which is what you were driving at in the first place. My head is overheating now and getting confused.

taking on more land, either rented or bought, comes with 1 big expense, the actual initial input to get 'going', whether stock or arable, they need to be bought, extra machinery etc.

So, you need to increase debt, to manage it, unless you have the money in the bank. Been through all that, just makes you run faster. Does it make you anymore profit, after the extra expenses/work ? And either rent or interest/mortgage.

The answer is down to each farmer, and his wants/wishes/plans etc. Some are hell bent on expansion, at any cost, some are just sensible, and some are just happy with their existing units.

 

[nxy]

You also have the 'problem' that the land is simply not as productive in this area. So, you are more likely to get a poorer return on your VC's if over used.

Totally agree investing in variable costs is a risk. If ever there was a region for limiting your inputs to a dog and a stick its this one.

Investing in land carries a much lower risk because up until now at least the subsidy comes no matter what.

 

[yoki]

and whilst I am definitely not against expansion, I do not see it as a goal in itself,

I think a lot of farmers do.

I suppose the question then is, where does this mindset come from?

Is a throwback to the post-war obsession to increase production, is it driven by the supply industry, is it driven by the food processors who know that greater production keeps the cost of their raw materials (aka, the farmers produce) lower, or is it just human nature, and as a sub-set to that then, what aspect of human nature, survival, greed, etc, etc?

Oh, and thanks for plainly well-considered come-back.

 

[Pilatus]

All depends what you want from life I guess.
Some want fancy cars and holidays to Dubai and such places, so need go earn more to get that.
Others prefer less work and less fancy stuff.
I drive a 04 plate Nissan pickup...
Oldest vehicle by at least 10 years on the school run.

Never judge anyone by the vehicle they drive etc etc,keep up the payments one can have nearly anything one wants in life, except perhaps one’s good health ( the most undervalued possession we have )

 

[Pilatus]

Off topic but relative to “The Urge to Grow”
What is the difference between a hard worker to get on in life, compared to being a workaholic.

 

[JockCroft]

70 is not old and 60 certainly is not, either.

Even in old age you need a schedule and a reason to get out of bed.

If you don't use your brain and skeleton daily- it'll decline a lot faster.

Thank you for that Ollie, and quite right in what you say.

As long as health lets us, keeping active helps keep us healthy. Two positives making a bigger positive, if you get what I'm meaning.

Been told by considerably older's that will know when to make changes, but have easy plans in place for family to follow when the inevitable happens.

 

[ollie989898]

Thank you for that Ollie, and quite right in what you say.

As long as health lets us, keeping active helps keep us healthy. Two positives making a bigger positive, if you get what I'm meaning.

Been told by considerably older's that will know when to make changes, but have easy plans in place for family to follow when the inevitable happens.

I once met an 80 year old person who was still playing 3 grounds of golf a week and I keep meeting 80+ year olds who are still living full and active lives. Your age is merely how many times you have been around the Sun.

 

[yoki]

Off topic but relative to “The Urge to Grow”
What is the difference between a hard worker to get on in life, compared to being a workaholic.

I would say there most definitely are differences.

IMO the main difference would be that the former can switch off when required or appropriate, the latter can't.

But I guess there's also a fair bit of common ground between the two as well.

*edit* - as an aside, the definition of "get on in life" is probably worth an entire thread (or several!) on it's own.

 

[ollie989898]

Off topic but relative to “The Urge to Grow”
What is the difference between a hard worker to get on in life, compared to being a workaholic.

I am a workaholic, no bones about it.

I don't switch off on holidays, I can generally do it for a few hours at a time but these are rare events. Much of the time when I am doing something I genuinely would rather be at work.

 

[Boomerang]

I once met an 80 year old person who was still playing 3 grounds of golf a week and I keep meeting 80+ year olds who are still living full and active lives. Your age is merely how many times you have been around the Sun.

Met a guy yesterday 70 years young wielding an axe , he had chopped 4 tons of Ash trees for firewood. Does it every weekend, and evening s after work, therapy he calls it as well as earning a few quid.

 

[ski]

I think a lot of farmers do.

I suppose the question then is, where does this mindset come from?

Is a throwback to the post-war obsession to increase production, is it driven by the supply industry, is it driven by the food processors who know that greater production keeps the cost of their raw materials (aka, the farmers produce) lower, or is it just human nature, and as a sub-set to that then, what aspect of human nature, survival, greed, etc, etc?

Oh, and thanks for plainly well-considered come-back.

Off topic but relative to “The Urge to Grow”
What is the difference between a hard worker to get on in life, compared to being a workaholic.

"I suppose the question then is, where does this mindset come from?"

Where does any mindset come from for that matter? Though I have seen in some people it is clear where it has come from, by way of an example my late father had a friend who was incredibly driven almost to his last breath, made lots of money, wore blingey jewellery, flash cars, mistresses, (the last at age 80!) but the poor chap was orphaned through Barnardos and then his adoptive family rejected him, not difficult to see his impetus and easy to ignore his shortcomings given the start he had. Others just seem to absorb ideas around them from maybe a dominant father or important other, the culture around them, I don't really know but I do agree with with the dictum "the unreflective life is not worth living" as in my experience as soon as you start to reflect on your past life you make better decisions and hopefully start to see your own deficiencies. That is what this thread is all about isn't it? I think it is much harder when you're young but hopefully being around older people who reflect on things rubs off.

As for the difference between a hard worker to get on and becoming a workaholic I thing the difference is more easily pinned down. It was pointed out to me years ago that being virtuous is great, so being a diligent worker as inferred is a good virtue, but I was asked what happens when you take the virtue and run with it to far, you spend all your time working, ignore the needs of those you should care for etc, and the virtue has transformed into a vice. I was guilty of just that at the time and was pulled up luckily in time. It was time for a bit of self reflection. I think all virtues taken to extreme become vices, no exceptions. Sadly I think we live in an era when many cannot see that and the effects are easy to identify almost everywhere.

 

[Boomerang]

A neighbour farms in a small way less than 150 acres all rented , he works all hours , no one could work harder but LUCK he hasn't any at all, at every turn things go wrong for him , how he keeps motivated I've no idea , but he loves what he does ,but he's also running just to stand still ,he'd be better off employed somewhere , but it's his life.

 

[ollie989898]

I can't explain why I am a workaholic but I do know that if I am working in a role and the workaholic thing is no longer in attendance then I am probably in the wrong job. I enjoy my work generally and have a certain level of OCD and diligence I think because I get a sense of satisfaction from a job nicely done. If something is worth doing then it is surely worth doing well. If not, don't do it?

I simply cannot abide fecklessness or people who go out of their way to obstruct workflow- they are out there and if I can I would actively avoid them. I enjoy a certain level of technical challenge, too. Always something new to learn in most jobs.

There is definitely a danger that one becomes too absorbed in their work and it is used as a mere distraction from other things in life though.

 

[Boomerang]

Another neighbour owns 50 acres nice little house and yard , drives a 12 year old car ,his main tractor is 25 years old his other one 30 years plus he's making a nice little living nothing flash all his kit is old but well looked after . If he wanted new kit he'd never do it off that area and would have to run like an Olympic athlete to get there, there's much to be said for being satisfied. Big isn't always beautiful. Big isnt slways best

 

[nxy]

I think there is an element in the expansion urge at least for me in that I inherited some wealth and the deal is that this is only OK if you put your children in a better position than you received from your parent. If you don't you are the weak link.

 

[soapsud]

A good question and I'm thinking about that. Can we define 'scope' a bit more please. "scope of works" defines the areas to be examined, so for say building work that would involve a remedial or improvement actions, however if I am in the Army lets say, and I send send a scout off to 'scope out the enemies positions" it is a mapping exercise to gather information that may effect plans, so I would call it an 'orientation' action. I am going to assume that you probably mean all three of these. How would you define it?

In practical farming terms, scale is expanding land through acquisition, ramping up machinery/infrastructure, so as to increase productivity i.e. more of what you're currently doing only more so, in all dimensions.

You seemingly define scale as a process, a method, a how-to, like travelling on the road to somewhere.

Yes, scope is looking, planning, mapping, plotting even. But it is also about things not easily measured like value, quality, significance (as opposed to direct economic worth, units of turnover, net profit, etc). I would say it's a feeling most of us easily recognise even if few can put it into words.

Scope in American business speak tries to put the non-quantifiable idea of scope back into terms of extraction, capture, squeezing till the pips squeak. It's a corporate term used by platforms like Amazon, eBay, etc. They confuse scope with categories, range and variety, like lines on a supermarket shelf.

Here's an e.g. of what I think scope is. I used to be a gardener in the 1990s. I took cuttings away. Pretty soon the yard was full so I then bought a bigger green waste shredder to process it into compost which I then sold back to my customers. So they paid me to dispose of waste which I then turned into a useful product. The scope in this instance is the nutrients, good microbes and minerals were recycled back to my customers soils. What made it worth it was I was paid twice for processing the same thing.

When farmers diversify, they have scope. When truckers backload, they have scope. When builders get add-on extras on a job after the agreed spec is completed, they have scope .