Time to go back in to Afghanistan

[Danllan]

They're not combatants.

I'd take some convincing that a guy in an air-conditioned room in a safe continent is going to suffer psychological problems to the same extent as the infantryman who's every step might trigger an IED.

Yes, I tend to agreeing with that, but there is also a probable and obvious difference in the psychological make-up of people who volunteer for infantry roles ( ) and those who choose to operate drones remotely - so, whatever their virtues, they may be a wee bit less resilient.

Not sure you are right. The fact is the man on the ground will be able to live with himself when he is in a firefight and kills other people, even if god forbid, an innocent is killed.
The guy in a room safe in in Texas or wherever will know when he presses the button and the rocket is launched at some remote house in Afghanistan that he might be killing a Taliban commander but there are most likely side kill as well.
He is doing this day on day whereas the man on the ground does it occasionally.
One reason the gas chambers were invented by the Nazis was because they could not get the volunteers to man the firing squads, even the most die hard nazis could not stand the pressure.

Been there... and the second part of your post is generally fine - although the Germans did find that some people had no problems with any numbers, presumably genuine psychopaths rather than 'mere' Nazi dogmatists.

In my experience and that of others far more experienced than me, seeing the various bits of someone killed slowly dripping down a wall or off a tree and experiencing the smell really does give a greater perspective than that of the fellow regarding things 'from above', no matter how good the optics, be it from a chopper or even more remotely a drone. Don't imagine that even a little .556, let alone anything else, always leaves clean wounds.

I'll also add that there is a huge difference in emotions and after-thoughts between how and why there is killing. The literal slaughter of Jews etc. by the Germans is nothing like being shot at and having to kill the shooter(s). I know lots of chaps who fought in the Rhodesian war, some in Fire Force were called out two or three times a day, day in day out and they suffered no doubts about killing large numbers of terrorists. But, then, the terrorists were attacking their country and their people / families.

I know of entirely innocent people, including children, who were killed 'collaterally' in several conflicts and who haunt the minds of decent men daily; while the same fellows, entirely rightly in my opinion, killed a lot of terrorists and haven't given them a second thought since. The feelings regarding killing an 'enemy', in the non-terrorist opponent sense, are subtly different but, still, the vast majority of soldiers and former soldiers I know are not consumed with horror or guilt at having defended themselves, their comrades and their country's interests, with fatal force when needed.

I know of none who wish or wished to kill for the sake of it, all would rather not, but that most had no problem with killing when necessary* - that includes me - and if that weren't the case there would be no point at all in having any armed forces.




*Note that I didn't write 'when absolutely necessary' or some such thing; killing someone isn't a 'bit' or 'very' necessary, it's simply either necessary or it isn't.

 

[Highland Mule]

They're not combatants.

I'd take some convincing that a guy in an air-conditioned room in a safe continent is going to suffer psychological problems to the same extent as the infantryman who's every step might trigger an IED.

I thought last night that I agreed with you 100%, but then I remembered Oppenheimer.

 

[Exfarmer]

Yes, I tend to agreeing with that, but there is also a probable and obvious difference in the psychological make-up of people who volunteer for infantry roles ( ) and those who choose to operate drones remotely - so, whatever their virtues, they may be a wee bit less resilient.


Been there... and the second part of your post is generally fine - although the Germans did find that some people had no problems with any numbers, presumably genuine psychopaths rather than 'mere' Nazi dogmatists.

In my experience and that of others far more experienced than me, seeing the various bits of someone killed slowly dripping down a wall or off a tree and experiencing the smell really does give a greater perspective than that of the fellow regarding things 'from above', no matter how good the optics, be it from a chopper or even more remotely a drone. Don't imagine that even a little .556, let alone anything else, always leaves clean wounds.

I'll also add that there is a huge difference in emotions and after-thoughts between how and why there is killing. The literal slaughter of Jews etc. by the Germans is nothing like being shot at and having to kill the shooter(s). I know lots of chaps who fought in the Rhodesian war, some in Fire Force were called out two or three times a day, day in day out and they suffered no doubts about killing large numbers of terrorists. But, then, the terrorists were attacking their country and their people / families.

I know of entirely innocent people, including children, who were killed 'collaterally' in several conflicts and who haunt the minds of decent men daily; while the same fellows, entirely rightly in my opinion, killed a lot of terrorists and haven't given them a second thought since. The feelings regarding killing an 'enemy', in the non-terrorist opponent sense, are subtly different but, still, the vast majority of soldiers and former soldiers I know are not consumed with horror or guilt at having defended themselves, their comrades and their country's interests, with fatal force when needed.

I know of none who wish or wished to kill for the sake of it, all would rather not, but that most had no problem with killing when necessary* - that includes me - and if that weren't the case there would be no point at all in having any armed forces.




*Note that I didn't write 'when absolutely necessary' or some such thing; killing someone isn't a 'bit' or 'very' necessary, it's simply either necessary or it isn't.

@Danllan if I caused you offence in my post, I apologise, I certainly did not mean it. As someone who has zero military experience, I cannot begin to understand what goes through the mind involved with fighting and killing.
I based my post mainly on the report of a German General whose name elludes me at the moment, referring to the deep affect on the morale of troops involved in the mass extermination programme.

 

[Danllan]

@Danllan if I caused you offence in my post, I apologise, I certainly did not mean it. As someone who has zero military experience, I cannot begin to understand what goes through the mind involved with fighting and killing.
I based my post mainly on the report of a German General whose name elludes me at the moment, referring to the deep affect on the morale of troops involved in the mass extermination programme.

No, not offended at all, not sure what I've written to make you think that...

 

[unlacedgecko]

Not sure you are right. The fact is the man on the ground will be able to live with himself when he is in a firefight and kills other people, even if god forbid, an innocent is killed.
The guy in a room safe in in Texas or wherever will know when he presses the button and the rocket is launched at some remote house in Afghanistan that he might be killing a Taliban commander but there are most likely side kill as well.
He is doing this day on day whereas the man on the ground does it occasionally.
One reason the gas chambers were invented by the Nazis was because they could not get the volunteers to man the firing squads, even thr most die hard nazis could not stand the pressure.

There's no physical threat to a drone operator. He'll never see with his own eyes the damage his weapons do, or the damage the enemy's weapons do to his mates.

Certain British army locations in Helmand province had a casualty rate of 75% (pharmacy road).

One location was subject to indirect fire (mortars and/or rockets) for 21 consecutive days.

The horrific suicide rate among veterans of Afghanistan and other wars suggests they can't live with themselves. I've yet of hear of a drone op killing themselves.

 

[Muck Spreader]

@Danllan if I caused you offence in my post, I apologise, I certainly did not mean it. As someone who has zero military experience, I cannot begin to understand what goes through the mind involved with fighting and killing.
I based my post mainly on the report of a German General whose name elludes me at the moment, referring to the deep affect on the morale of troops involved in the mass extermination programme.

What you said is correct as far as I know. Apparently Einsatzgruppen members often mentally broke down after only about three weeks of carrying out executions. As a result of this, they started to recruit soldiers with low IQ's but with little improvement. Better results were obtained with none Germanic troops under SS officers but it all still put a severe strain on morale and mental wellbeing, hence the Gas lorries and then ultimately the Gas Chambers. Pure ruddy Evil.

 

[Lowland1]

There is a Dr Who story from the ‘70s where two countries fight a war by computer rather than bombard each other a computer predicts the number of deaths and the predicted number are put to sleep by their respective sides. Obviously I can’t remember it perfectly especially as most of it was viewed from behind the settee but maybe it’s a prediction.

 

[Danllan]

...The horrific suicide rate among veterans of Afghanistan and other wars suggests they can't live with themselves. I've yet of hear of a drone op killing themselves.

No questioning the terrible truth of what you write, but I've often pondered the reason for it. Our troops have been in extremely stressful situations since day one, and certainly some did succumb to suicidal depressions in the past - but proportionately far fewer than do now.

War probably hasn't got any more horrible, dismemberment, massive trauma etc. looking the same and being as consistently unpleasant since the beginning. Equally, we as a species haven't 'evolved' sufficiently in that time - if at all - to explain any increase; so my conclusion is that the increase in modern suicides is down to social / psychological changes.

Put bluntly, I think the general population as a whole is far 'softer' - not necessarily intending that as a pejorative term - than earlier generations, more 'sensitive' if some prefer it; and, of course, armies are drawn from the general population. And that soldiers being constantly asked how they 'feel' about things, and being told that they 'should' feel x, y or z just exacerbates the situation.

There is a Dr Who story from the ‘70s where two countries fight a war by computer rather than bombard each other a computer predicts the number of deaths and the predicted number are put to sleep by their respective sides. Obviously I can’t remember it perfectly especially as most of it was viewed from behind the settee but maybe it’s a prediction.

I bet that if a proportional number of politicos or their children were the ones being euthanised, global peace would be a given.

 

[The Seeker]

War was a thing when both sides respected the rules of the battlefield, you can’t go to war with a goat herder holding a machine gun. It’s just a sh!t show at best

 

[wanton dwarf]

There is a Dr Who story from the ‘70s where two countries fight a war by computer rather than bombard each other a computer predicts the number of deaths and the predicted number are put to sleep by their respective sides. Obviously I can’t remember it perfectly especially as most of it was viewed from behind the settee but maybe it’s a prediction.

A Taste of Armageddon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[essexpete]

I don’t doubt it. They are human. Unlike Bush, Blair, Obama, Clinton or Dominic Rab sitting on his Greek beach who continue to give zero fuqs for the lives they took and the lives they turn upside down

Don't forget dear old Tony, on failing to become Euro President, became a peace envoy.

 

[Danllan]

Don't forget dear old Tony, on failing to become Euro President, became a peace envoy.

And to the Middle East...!

 

[unlacedgecko]

Don't forget dear old Tony, on failing to become Euro President, became a peace envoy.

I'd love to see that man hanged.

 

[br jones]

ought to drop dear ole tony into afganistan just now

 

[toquark]

One reason the gas chambers were invented by the Nazis was because they could not get the volunteers to man the firing squads, even thr most die hard nazis could not stand the pressure.

On this I’d recommend reading Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. It describes in chilling detail how a group of middle class, middle aged German volunteers were drafted into the Holocaust firing squads and just how little time it took to turn their reactions to their orders from repulsion to relish.

If anyone thinks they would react differently in similar circumstances, they need to read this book.

 

[Danllan]

On this I’d recommend reading Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. It describes in chilling detail how a group of middle class, middle aged German volunteers were drafted into the Holocaust firing squads and just how little time it took to turn their reactions to their orders from repulsion to relish.

If anyone thinks they would react differently in similar circumstances, they need to read this book.

Lots would react differently in similar circumstances, some even did then, and they were shot too.

 

[toquark]

Lots would react differently in similar circumstances, some even did then, and they were shot too.

They weren’t forced at the barrel of a gun, they were cleverly groomed and coerced, following a misguided sense of duty to their country but mainly to one another.

It’s a fascinating and terrifying insight into the human psyche and the capacity for unspeakable evil that lies in most of us.

Most people are happier being in the majority than being right.

 

[Danllan]

They weren’t forced at the barrel of a gun, they were cleverly groomed and coerced, following a misguided sense of duty to their country but mainly to one another.

It’s a fascinating and terrifying insight into the human psyche and the capacity for unspeakable evil that lies in most of us.

Most people are happier being in the majority than being right.

I didn't write that they had been forced; I have not read that book, but I am familiar with the story and a few other similar ones; I stand by what I wrote.

 

[Exfarmer]

They weren’t forced at the barrel of a gun, they were cleverly groomed and coerced, following a misguided sense of duty to their country but mainly to one another.

It’s a fascinating and terrifying insight into the human psyche and the capacity for unspeakable evil that lies in most of us.

Most people are happier being in the majority than being right.

 

[Exfarmer]

I have not read the story, but middle aged men , may have very well be traumatised and thus anaesthetised by experiences in the trenches of the first World War