I forgot to add exclaimation marks !!!!!!!!!
Time to go back in to Afghanistan
- Thread starter bobk
- Start date
Bless you….
- Location
- Limousin
Listening to some ex US military chap the other day on the failure of the Afghan military. He put it down the fact that the US always train up these new forces in their own image, which works fine whilst the US is still active in the background. What they fail to accommodate is the the massive logistical infrastructure the US Army has behind its all fighting troops. When the US pulls out all this goes as well, leaving any troops at the sharp end very isolated from withdrawal, reinforcement, supplies, medevac, etc..
If you think world war one commanders ordering young troops to get up out of the trenches & walk slowly towards machine guns is a sign of experienced leadership then you are a fool!History clearly isn't your strong point; they had huge experience and were very good at their particular type of soldiering, but it was in fighting colonial wars and wars of mobile containment. Neither were anything like appropriate for what started in Europe in 1914 and, in fact, were so inappropriate that the transfer of tactics - strategy aside - played into the enemy's hands...
There is a very, very definite and clear process available to remove sitting US Presidents, take a squint at the 25th Amendment.As for his decisions, I'd say he started going wrong about 38 years ago*.
*He was a very strong and vocal supporter of ours in re the Falklands.
There are a good number of posters who have been in the forces, they have the experience to comment, remember the expression about best letting people think you're stupid than post on social media and remove any doubt. Might be a good idea to remove your post
- Location
- Bay of Plenty NZ
There are a handful of posters who may have served in the armed forces, the majority of commentators will not have, making them armchair generals as per @Ashtree post.
PostHarvest
Member
- Location
- Warwick
The USA handed over Bagram to the Afghans about 6 weeks ago, its also about 40 miles North of Kabul so much less convenient to transport a large number of people such as Embassy staff. Another issue is that a sizeable portion of the Afghan Airforce fled to Tajikistan taking their planes, so there is limited local support there. In 2005, I was evacuated from Kandahar airfield when things started to go bad. Even that was chaotic even though Kandahar airport is out in the open countryside and we were only dealing with a handful of people. I cannot imagine what it must be like in Kabul which is a densely populated city where the roads are always jammed with traffic and people - even in "normal times". I've never been in the military, but I have worked in multiple war zones alongside the forces of several countries. I really feel for former Afghan colleagues in Helmand, Kandahar, Kabul and Kunduz.
ollie989898
Member
I'm baffled as to why people are so irate at the Americans: they have been in the country for years now and have spent billions if not trillions there and lost thousands of their servicemen in the conflict. President Biden has withdrawn from the place. President Trump was insistent on doing the very same thing years earlier and would have no doubt done the exact same thing had he been re-elected. You need public and congressional support to remain in place.
The West entered Afghanistan, forced the Taliban and Al Qaeda to retreat, searched for Bin Laden and eventually got him along with several other key players over the years, striking a big blow in the war on terror. As far as I can see the initial aims of the West in the region are largely completed.
It is very easy to insist the US, UK and other NATO members continue spending billions in the region but you can send your own son or daughter thanks.
The West entered Afghanistan, forced the Taliban and Al Qaeda to retreat, searched for Bin Laden and eventually got him along with several other key players over the years, striking a big blow in the war on terror. As far as I can see the initial aims of the West in the region are largely completed.
It is very easy to insist the US, UK and other NATO members continue spending billions in the region but you can send your own son or daughter thanks.
ollie989898
Member
The psychological stresses imposed on the drone operator and the infantryman will be subtly different, yes. But the net result may well be the same. I have no doubt that the sound of hearing your allies on the radio asking for air support whilst in they are in contact with the enemy could be pretty stressful for an airman, particularly when you know that there is a risk of hitting your own side whilst you are obliged to 'work' through a computer screen by remote.
ollie989898
Member
That was a great speech but what was his point and what is he advocating for? President Biden has the political mandate to leave Afghanistan. He is obliged to do that.
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
You seem to have acquired your historical 'knowledge' from Blackadder Goes Forth, rather foolish...
Let us know the first-hand accounts that refer to what you claim, I'll be astonished if you can adduce a single one. It didn't happen, no CO would ever have allowed such a thing to be foisted onto his men*. There are some famous film clips of men appearing to do what you suggest, but they were reenactments, and they were what Ben Elton based the sketches in Blackadder upon.
I have read many accounts and spoken with some men who survived long service on the Western Front. All of these tell of orders to advance at best speed, to avoid enemy fire using ground and available cover, the only 'brake' on advances being the speed of any creeping barrage in front once that was being used. Far from walking, it was a case of dashing, from one shell hole to the next or whatever was available.
Men did go over the top, a plain fact, but the tactic was to deploy smoke randomly before, so that the Germans wouldn't know which was for the actual attack. And the attacks themselves were as already explained. Certainly some, literally, got bogged down, or halted by unexpected / unnoticed obstacles; but the horrific losses in WW1 were not down to many thousands of men being ordered to do what you claim.
If you want historical fact, go to primary sources.
*Orders that, effectively, amount to suicide have been given very occasionally when absolutely necessary, e.g. such as to Nicholson in Calais in 1940, but they are entirely different to what you claim.
No, you just have absolutely no experience of the subject, several of us do and, rather than have your habitual ignorance made bloody obvious, again, you've chosen your usual second option of making snide remarks from the sideline, again...
Strungup52
Member
Which NATO forces do you have in mind?
All those queuing up to take the place of the Americans?
Evolution is not always good - peoples noses are too short - if noses were longer perhaps people would see more of whats going on in the world without having to look beyond their proboscis?
It took the so called cream of the British army rather a long time to realise that their tactics were not working. Nothing short of a disgrace that British leaders, both civilian and military, nearly wrecked a generation. Still I am causing a digression.History clearly isn't your strong point; they had huge experience and were very good at their particular type of soldiering, but it was in fighting colonial wars and wars of mobile containment. Neither were anything like appropriate for what started in Europe in 1914 and, in fact, were so inappropriate that the transfer of tactics - strategy aside - played into the enemy's hands...
ollie989898
Member
The overall strategy in WW1 worked perfectly. As it did in WW2 which was essentially the same. Bottle Germany up with a naval blockade and fight them. It worked both times. The failures on the Western front were manifest and were made by commanders on all sides, not just the British.
- Location
- Northern Ireland
Article in the telegraph this morning climbing there was only a fraction of the claimed police and army numbers due to corruption.
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
Yes - bar the word 'cream', that tended and tends to refer to the best units rather than actual commanders. Were it to be applied to the then officer corps it could not, by definition, have included the fools that failed to adapt.
But the fact remains that there were a great many excellent officers back then, who were also failed by the 'system' of patronage and deference, and every bit as much as the men.
ollie989898
Member
This is hardly news. Corruption in a foreign country which has been receiving billions in aid from overseas?