Today's the day...

[kiwi pom]

I'm confused....why do we want to produce more food given they don't want to pay for the stuff were already producing

That's why I asked up thread whether being self-sufficient in food is on the same page as happy landowners/farmers.
I think they are two different things.
I'm not sure who "they" is?
People (farmers are people) want to pay as little as possible for everything.

 

[Raider112]

I do and for a lot of people that are mentioned the government doesn't pay their wages but the NHS trust they work for, or the school that employs them, etc. Civil service is paid straight by the government but public sector workers are not. Yes they have a public service but count the people on here that spout that they are feeding the world which is a public service if you ask me. Indirectly the wages might come from the government but that is the point I'm making that this is the case for a lot of farmers as well, without subsidies or grants they would not survive.

You are stretching the credibility of your point there, subsidies or grants are completely different to wages, you could possibly compare them to bonuses at a push.
Whether a business would survive or not without subsidies is irrelevant, they would still try, they are going to have to in a few years.
Nobody would work a week without a wage.
NHS trusts, schools or whatever are given a budget from the Government from which they have to balance the books and pay the wages, if the government aren't paying them enough to do that the likely result is job losses.
The government have been resisting pay rises to strikers, they pay the wages, if they pay them too much they have to make cuts elsewhere.

 

[Turnip]

You are stretching the credibility of your point there, subsidies or grants are completely different to wages, you could possibly compare them to bonuses at a push.
Whether a business would survive or not without subsidies is irrelevant, they would still try, they are going to have to in a few years.
Nobody would work a week without a wage.
NHS trusts, schools or whatever are given a budget from the Government from which they have to balance the books and pay the wages, if the government aren't paying them enough to do that the likely result is job losses.
The government have been resisting pay rises to strikers, they pay the wages, if they pay them too much they have to make cuts elsewhere.

If the budgets given by the government were the only income streams you would be right unfortunately most have other incomes as well. Most NHS hospitals get a nice layout for private healthcare, renting out their facilities. They are not the government, they are public services the government has committed to existing and is exerting influence over by setting budgets provided.

 

[kiwi pom]

You are stretching the credibility of your point there, subsidies or grants are completely different to wages, you could possibly compare them to bonuses at a push.
Whether a business would survive or not without subsidies is irrelevant, they would still try, they are going to have to in a few years.
Nobody would work a week without a wage.
NHS trusts, schools or whatever are given a budget from the Government from which they have to balance the books and pay the wages, if the government aren't paying them enough to do that the likely result is job losses.
The government have been resisting pay rises to strikers, they pay the wages, if they pay them too much they have to make cuts elsewhere.

Would farmers still try?
There seem to be a lot who don't want to produce food now even with subs, grants, tax breaks and some form of environmental scheme that can be run alongside food production.
Look at the threads on here, almost everyone is discussing what can be done to get government money or reduce tax. It's not our job to feed the nation is one of the most common quotes.
If it's not about money, threads are usually demanding government do more to help, they should control buyers or imports etc.

Landowners perhaps rightly treat their land as a business and want to make money out of it, if that means no food, that's what they'll do.

So being self-sufficient in food is a completely different problem.

 

[Raider112]

If the budgets given by the government were the only income streams you would be right unfortunately most have other incomes as well. Most NHS hospitals get a nice layout for private healthcare, renting out their facilities. They are not the government, they are public services the government has committed to existing and is exerting influence over by setting budgets provided.

But how many would they employ if they didn't have the government budget? probably about as many as I employ.
You can't say that about schools for example, unless you want to say the annual tombola stall is relevant.

To be honest I've had a bellyful of this, I think they are paid by the government, you don't. We aren't going to change each other's minds if we talk all night so I'm out, better things to do on a friday night have a good evening.

 

[Raider112]

Would farmers still try?
There seem to be a lot who don't want to produce food now even with subs, grants, tax breaks and some form of environmental scheme that can be run alongside food production.
Look at the threads on here, almost everyone is discussing what can be done to get government money or reduce tax. It's not our job to feed the nation is one of the most common quotes.
If it's not about money, threads are usually demanding government do more to help, they should control buyers or imports etc.

Landowners perhaps rightly treat their land as a business and want to make money out of it, if that means no food, that's what they'll do.

So being self-sufficient in food is a completely different problem.

A different subject again, you make some fair points, not sure I like the direction of travel but time will tell I suppose.

 

[Boveyfarmer]

Perhaps farmers should join together and operate like OPEC and exercise more control of the food chain.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

"Ringwood. Adjacent fields. This shows 2 extremes of “food from the land”. On the right is monoculture with sole aim of maximising yield and on the left, separated by a new hedge, is 4 acres of integrated biodiversity and an extraordinary range of vegetables surrounded by the buzz and flutter of countless birds, butterflies and bees."

Where did these countless birds, butterflies and bees come from?

 

[melted welly]

Where did these countless birds, butterflies and bees come from?

They’ll have ridden in on the backs of the unicorns and fairies.

 

[kiwi pom]

Perhaps farmers should join together and operate like OPEC and exercise more control of the food chain.

How are you going to do that?
Farmers are all competing against one another, and all have very different financial situations.

 

[Kidds]

....we ran out of home produced food.

I haven't.
Just had a lovely evening meal of lamb stew cooked in cider with blackberry and apple crumble. All of which was from within walking distance if not my own.

 

[Kidds]

Not confident that horse manure comes from animals that aren't abused. I have been involved with them all my life and I have never known one ask to be ridden yet!

Mine was always keen to be strapped to a cart and driven off down the road. Would get rid of the 3 vehicles in the pic, at least one of which was from other other side of the world

 

[borderterribles]

Mine was always keen to be strapped to a cart and driven off down the road. Would get rid of the 3 vehicles in the pic, at least one of which was from other other side of the world

Oh, I have had plenty that were keen enough. I am still not sure that it couldn't be classed as coercive control though, and therefore abusive. Anyway, there's a fella near here with a few horses and he spreads the muck from them on his grass fields. I don't know what he beds the horses on, but it isn't much of an advert for it, as I reckon he'd have the same grass or more, if he didn't bother.

 

[Canada Farmer]

The UK was last fully food self sufficient in around 1750.

But then folk didn't eat mango, pineapple or avocado here then

Anyone cornered the Scotish grown banana market???
How can people live without avocados!!!

 

[Canada Farmer]

I'm confused....why do we want to produce more food given they don't want to pay for the stuff were already producing

And that's where you need "supply management", Canada has the answer but then it might be hard accepting a solution from some else in the Commonwealth and not those "convicts" on the other side of the equator!!!

 

[spin cycle]

And that's where you need "supply management", Canada has the answer but then it might be hard accepting a solution from some else in the Commonwealth and not those "convicts" on the other side of the equator!!!

'what is 'supply management'?

I was brought up with 'supply/demand' ....but that does seem 'manipulated' by supermarkets these days

 

[delilah]

Many thanks for the proposals. To summarize thus far:

1. Kenny Everett to be made Defence Secretary. A questionable idea, on account of him being no longer with us.
2. All publicly procured meat to be UK origin.
3. Carbon border tax on imported food.
4. Remove 'set aside' payments.
5. Grade 1 land to be reserved for food production (no AD, horse hay, houses, rewilding))
6. Tax reform pertinent to land ownership/ use.
7. Transparency/ fairness on supplier contracts.
8. Ban on loss leaders.
9. Recognition of central role of livestock/ removal of anti-livestock legislation.
10. Return of home economics to the curriculum, with focus on recipes for home produced food, inc roadkill.
11. Recognition of the difference between enteric methane and fossil fuel methane.
12. Biodiversity net gain to be scrutinized/ removed.
13. RT to be made supplier led.
14. OPEC style farmer cooperation.

Thank you, any more ?

 

[Canada Farmer]

Many thanks for the proposals. To summarize thus far:

1. Kenny Everett to be made Defence Secretary. A questionable idea, on account of him being no longer with us.
2. All publicly procured meat to be UK origin.
3. Carbon border tax on imported food.
4. Remove 'set aside' payments.
5. Grade 1 land to be reserved for food production (no AD, horse hay, houses, rewilding))
6. Tax reform pertinent to land ownership/ use.
7. Transparency/ fairness on supplier contracts.
8. Ban on loss leaders.
9. Recognition of central role of livestock/ removal of anti-livestock legislation.
10. Return of home economics to the curriculum, with focus on recipes for home produced food, inc roadkill.
11. Recognition of the difference between enteric methane and fossil fuel methane.
12. Biodiversity net gain to be scrutinized/ removed.
13. RT to be made supplier led.
14. OPEC style farmer cooperation.

Thank you, any more ?

15, All Landrovers exported to the world to be repatriated and Morris Marina to be the only car available domestically!!!



Anyone seen the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy lately???

 

[melted welly]

Many thanks for the proposals. To summarize thus far:

1. Kenny Everett to be made Defence Secretary. A questionable idea, on account of him being no longer with us.
2. All publicly procured meat to be UK origin.
3. Carbon border tax on imported food.
4. Remove 'set aside' payments.
5. Grade 1 land to be reserved for food production (no AD, horse hay, houses, rewilding))
6. Tax reform pertinent to land ownership/ use.
7. Transparency/ fairness on supplier contracts.
8. Ban on loss leaders.
9. Recognition of central role of livestock/ removal of anti-livestock legislation.
10. Return of home economics to the curriculum, with focus on recipes for home produced food, inc roadkill.
11. Recognition of the difference between enteric methane and fossil fuel methane.
12. Biodiversity net gain to be scrutinized/ removed.
13. RT to be made supplier led.
14. OPEC style farmer cooperation.

Thank you, any more ?

Classification of foodstuffs based on nutritional value, and taking into account the availability to human digestion.

“Junk Foodstuffs”, high in calories, low in nutrition with some token unavailable trace elements thrown in to provide theoretical “balance” to be subject to VAT+10%

 

[kiwi pom]

Many thanks for the proposals. To summarize thus far:

1. Kenny Everett to be made Defence Secretary. A questionable idea, on account of him being no longer with us.
2. All publicly procured meat to be UK origin.
3. Carbon border tax on imported food.
4. Remove 'set aside' payments.
5. Grade 1 land to be reserved for food production (no AD, horse hay, houses, rewilding))
6. Tax reform pertinent to land ownership/ use.
7. Transparency/ fairness on supplier contracts.
8. Ban on loss leaders.
9. Recognition of central role of livestock/ removal of anti-livestock legislation.
10. Return of home economics to the curriculum, with focus on recipes for home produced food, inc roadkill.
11. Recognition of the difference between enteric methane and fossil fuel methane.
12. Biodiversity net gain to be scrutinized/ removed.
13. RT to be made supplier led.
14. OPEC style farmer cooperation.

Thank you, any more ?

If the UK is to be self-sufficient, some kind of control over what is produced and where will be needed to ensure overall targets in things like meat, dairy, fruit and veg are reached.
No good just growing feed wheat if the country is short of potatoes for example.
I don't know what you do about things like rice and pasta?