Very early or very late?!

[Boso]

Been reading along as a non registered voyeur.
I have a flock of Barbados Blackbelly sheep which I lamb every six months (march and september). Ram goes in a few weeks after the ewes have lambed.
The BBB ewes are used to produce F1 females.

Main challenge in my case is not the grass growth but forage quality since I run the ewes on conservation grazing projects which means that to keep the pure ewes productieve, with such a system and the current genetics I need to supplement a little. If you can run your flock on dairy pasture or improved grounds in the fall I think you will do well.
Have used swifter (=Texel east friesian cross) and poll Dorset as maternal sires. Have a few Charmoise rams for this year to be used on the pure BBB flock and the F1 females. All F1 females will breed out of season.
My pure bbb ewes are 35-45 kg, F1 females 40-50.
Best F1 Rams are used on best F1 ewes ( bbb x swifter ram is used on bbb x pd ewes, bbb x pd ram is used on the bbb x Charmoise ewes, bbb x Charmoise ram on bbb x swifter ewes etc).
I can comment on the performance of the F1 ewes but not on the second generation since I’m not there yet and let the ewes werk hard for 3-4 years before breeding them to a a F1 ram from my own breeding.

One of my favorite ewes is actually a BBBxhampshire down ( accident from a few years back) She does not shed fully, will rebreed few weeks after lambing, will nurse and rear twins twice a year or twice every 13-14 months. Keeps condition well in my system and looks good without supplementation.

The F1 females will raise nice fat lambs if the right terminal sire is used.
Main reason for me to incorporate Charmoise genetics is to improve the ability of the ewes to maintain condition and production on crap pasture.

I do wonder if ewes used in such an excellerated out of season breeding program would benefit from a bit more bodyfat which they can use when the going gets tough.....?(which is my own explanation of why the BBB x hampshire keeps herself together really well)

Sorry, not a native speaker. Not trying to hijack your thread, just sharing some insight. I don’t think your idea is unrealistic.

 

[CopperBeech]

Been reading along as a non registered voyeur.
I have a flock of Barbados Blackbelly sheep which I lamb every six months (march and september). Ram goes in a few weeks after the ewes have lambed.
The BBB ewes are used to produce F1 females.

Main challenge in my case is not the grass growth but forage quality since I run the ewes on conservation grazing projects which means that to keep the pure ewes productieve, with such a system and the current genetics I need to supplement a little. If you can run your flock on dairy pasture or improved grounds in the fall I think you will do well.
Have used swifter (=Texel east friesian cross) and poll Dorset as maternal sires. Have a few Charmoise rams for this year to be used on the pure BBB flock and the F1 females. All F1 females will breed out of season.
My pure bbb ewes are 35-45 kg, F1 females 40-50.
Best F1 Rams are used on best F1 ewes ( bbb x swifter ram is used on bbb x pd ewes, bbb x pd ram is used on the bbb x Charmoise ewes, bbb x Charmoise ram on bbb x swifter ewes etc).
I can comment on the performance of the F1 ewes but not on the second generation since I’m not there yet and let the ewes werk hard for 3-4 years before breeding them to a a F1 ram from my own breeding.

One of my favorite ewes is actually a BBBxhampshire down ( accident from a few years back) She does not shed fully, will rebreed few weeks after lambing, will nurse and rear twins twice a year or twice every 13-14 months. Keeps condition well in my system and looks good without supplementation.

The F1 females will raise nice fat lambs if the right terminal sire is used.
Main reason for me to incorporate Charmoise genetics is to improve the ability of the ewes to maintain condition and production on crap pasture.

I do wonder if ewes used in such an excellerated out of season breeding program would benefit from a bit more bodyfat which they can use when the going gets tough.....?(which is my own explanation of why the BBB x hampshire keeps herself together really well)

Sorry, not a native speaker. Not trying to hijack your thread, just sharing some insight. I don’t think your idea is unrealistic.

Brilliant post. Thank you.

Where are you?

 

[neilo]

Been reading along as a non registered voyeur.
I have a flock of Barbados Blackbelly sheep which I lamb every six months (march and september). Ram goes in a few weeks after the ewes have lambed.
The BBB ewes are used to produce F1 females.

Main challenge in my case is not the grass growth but forage quality since I run the ewes on conservation grazing projects which means that to keep the pure ewes productieve, with such a system and the current genetics I need to supplement a little. If you can run your flock on dairy pasture or improved grounds in the fall I think you will do well.
Have used swifter (=Texel east friesian cross) and poll Dorset as maternal sires. Have a few Charmoise rams for this year to be used on the pure BBB flock and the F1 females. All F1 females will breed out of season.
My pure bbb ewes are 35-45 kg, F1 females 40-50.
Best F1 Rams are used on best F1 ewes ( bbb x swifter ram is used on bbb x pd ewes, bbb x pd ram is used on the bbb x Charmoise ewes, bbb x Charmoise ram on bbb x swifter ewes etc).
I can comment on the performance of the F1 ewes but not on the second generation since I’m not there yet and let the ewes werk hard for 3-4 years before breeding them to a a F1 ram from my own breeding.

One of my favorite ewes is actually a BBBxhampshire down ( accident from a few years back) She does not shed fully, will rebreed few weeks after lambing, will nurse and rear twins twice a year or twice every 13-14 months. Keeps condition well in my system and looks good without supplementation.

The F1 females will raise nice fat lambs if the right terminal sire is used.
Main reason for me to incorporate Charmoise genetics is to improve the ability of the ewes to maintain condition and production on crap pasture.

I do wonder if ewes used in such an excellerated out of season breeding program would benefit from a bit more bodyfat which they can use when the going gets tough.....?(which is my own explanation of why the BBB x hampshire keeps herself together really well)

Sorry, not a native speaker. Not trying to hijack your thread, just sharing some insight. I don’t think your idea is unrealistic.

Thank you for the insight, and welcome to the forum. It’s always interesting to read another angle.
I’m Guessing you’re in the Netherlands or Belgium, if you are using a Swifter? I know very little about them and we don’t have them over here, but what is the make up of that breed/composite? I always understood that they had Texel blood in, which wouldn’t help with aseasonality?.

 

[NZDan]

Been reading along as a non registered voyeur.
I have a flock of Barbados Blackbelly sheep which I lamb every six months (march and september). Ram goes in a few weeks after the ewes have lambed.
The BBB ewes are used to produce F1 females.

Main challenge in my case is not the grass growth but forage quality since I run the ewes on conservation grazing projects which means that to keep the pure ewes productieve, with such a system and the current genetics I need to supplement a little. If you can run your flock on dairy pasture or improved grounds in the fall I think you will do well.
Have used swifter (=Texel east friesian cross) and poll Dorset as maternal sires. Have a few Charmoise rams for this year to be used on the pure BBB flock and the F1 females. All F1 females will breed out of season.
My pure bbb ewes are 35-45 kg, F1 females 40-50.
Best F1 Rams are used on best F1 ewes ( bbb x swifter ram is used on bbb x pd ewes, bbb x pd ram is used on the bbb x Charmoise ewes, bbb x Charmoise ram on bbb x swifter ewes etc).
I can comment on the performance of the F1 ewes but not on the second generation since I’m not there yet and let the ewes werk hard for 3-4 years before breeding them to a a F1 ram from my own breeding.

One of my favorite ewes is actually a BBBxhampshire down ( accident from a few years back) She does not shed fully, will rebreed few weeks after lambing, will nurse and rear twins twice a year or twice every 13-14 months. Keeps condition well in my system and looks good without supplementation.

The F1 females will raise nice fat lambs if the right terminal sire is used.
Main reason for me to incorporate Charmoise genetics is to improve the ability of the ewes to maintain condition and production on crap pasture.

I do wonder if ewes used in such an excellerated out of season breeding program would benefit from a bit more bodyfat which they can use when the going gets tough.....?(which is my own explanation of why the BBB x hampshire keeps herself together really well)

Sorry, not a native speaker. Not trying to hijack your thread, just sharing some insight. I don’t think your idea is unrealistic.

I saw a system using BBB ewes in Mexico, all ewes mated to Charolais and Texel rams, they ran inside on slates on adlib feed, lambs where killed fat off the ewe at 45-50kg. All scanned dry ewes were culled as they were worth the same price per kg as the lambs, 8 year old ewes, who had now lambed 14 times, were moved out side and mated to BBB Rams to produce replacement ewe lambs. The BBB ewes were weaning 170%-190% at each lambing.

 

[taff]

Been reading along as a non registered voyeur.
I have a flock of Barbados Blackbelly sheep which I lamb every six months (march and september). Ram goes in a few weeks after the ewes have lambed.
The BBB ewes are used to produce F1 females.

Main challenge in my case is not the grass growth but forage quality since I run the ewes on conservation grazing projects which means that to keep the pure ewes productieve, with such a system and the current genetics I need to supplement a little. If you can run your flock on dairy pasture or improved grounds in the fall I think you will do well.
Have used swifter (=Texel east friesian cross) and poll Dorset as maternal sires. Have a few Charmoise rams for this year to be used on the pure BBB flock and the F1 females. All F1 females will breed out of season.
My pure bbb ewes are 35-45 kg, F1 females 40-50.
Best F1 Rams are used on best F1 ewes ( bbb x swifter ram is used on bbb x pd ewes, bbb x pd ram is used on the bbb x Charmoise ewes, bbb x Charmoise ram on bbb x swifter ewes etc).
I can comment on the performance of the F1 ewes but not on the second generation since I’m not there yet and let the ewes werk hard for 3-4 years before breeding them to a a F1 ram from my own breeding.

One of my favorite ewes is actually a BBBxhampshire down ( accident from a few years back) She does not shed fully, will rebreed few weeks after lambing, will nurse and rear twins twice a year or twice every 13-14 months. Keeps condition well in my system and looks good without supplementation.

The F1 females will raise nice fat lambs if the right terminal sire is used.
Main reason for me to incorporate Charmoise genetics is to improve the ability of the ewes to maintain condition and production on crap pasture.

I do wonder if ewes used in such an excellerated out of season breeding program would benefit from a bit more bodyfat which they can use when the going gets tough.....?(which is my own explanation of why the BBB x hampshire keeps herself together really well)

Sorry, not a native speaker. Not trying to hijack your thread, just sharing some insight. I don’t think your idea is unrealistic.

Fascinating thanks any picture's of the ewes and your system?

 

[Boso]

Thank you for the insight, and welcome to the forum. It’s always interesting to read another angle.
I’m Guessing you’re in the Netherlands or Belgium, if you are using a Swifter? I know very little about them and we don’t have them over here, but what is the make up of that breed/composite? I always understood that they had Texel blood in, which wouldn’t help with aseasonality?.

Correct. They are a breed/stabilised composite. Breeding started in the 80s at our ag uni. They are texel x milksheep (actually Flemish milkshake which is nearly the same as EF).
Lleyn look a lot like swifter.
They are very milky, maternal, myomax, prolific 280%, nice short tail. Very easy to buy recorded animals within the swifter population.
The swifter does everything you would have thought aan zwartbles was going tot do.
You are right, swifter is seasonal, BBB files that☺

 

[Boso]

Brilliant post. Thank you.

Where are you?

Land of the Texel

 

[Boso]

I saw a system using BBB ewes in Mexico, all ewes mated to Charolais and Texel rams, they ran inside on slates on adlib feed, lambs where killed fat off the ewe at 45-50kg. All scanned dry ewes were culled as they were worth the same price per kg as the lambs, 8 year old ewes, who had now lambed 14 times, were moved out side and mated to BBB Rams to produce replacement ewe lambs. The BBB ewes were weaning 170%-190% at each lambing.

I've read about that system as well. I expect that with them being inside they will receive additional feeding, a lot more then they get over here.
I have thought about using the bbb females pure and not having such a stratified breeding on my own which does require more time to get the breeding stock you want.
If I would use the bbb pure to produce fat lambs I'd use a chartex or suftex as terminal sire.
Also imo in such an excellerated breeding program it will be beneficial to the ewes to not have them lamb at 12 months old but a bit later.
I have done both but feel that lambing twice a year or very close to it needs a few tweeks compared to once a year to be succesfull.

 

[Chris123]

What sort of lambing % are you getting copper beech?

 

[Chris123]

Would the ewe lambs out of a welsh ewes with a Dorset ram put over them still lamb all year round?

 

[Boso]

Part of the progeny might have an extended season part of the f1 ewes might be able tot breed year round. Will depend upon how aseasonal the dorset with which you start actually is.

 

[hendrebc]

How about charmoise cross lleyn ewe lambs? Teased to lamb in mid September or thereabouts

 

[Boso]

How about charmoise cross lleyn ewe lambs? Teased to lamb in mid September or thereabouts

The breeder I bought my charmoise rams from breeds them out of season. Not twice a year, more like once every 10 months. The ewes do fine.

What I think the charmoise lacks is prolificy and a little more milk would be nice. The lleyn will probably fix that but a pd, lacaune or a little bit of fin could also work. If you don't mind the wool, a 3/4 charmoise 1/4 fin or lacaune x charmoise might be nice as a ewe. However I like my ewes small (50 kg max).

 

[hendrebc]

The breeder I bought my charmoise rams from breeds them out of season. Not twice a year, more like once every 10 months. The ewes do fine.

What I think the charmoise lacks is prolificy and a little more milk would be nice. The lleyn will probably fix that but a pd, lacaune or a little bit of fin could also work. If you don't mind the wool, a 3/4 charmoise 1/4 fin or lacaune x charmoise might be nice as a ewe. However I like my ewes small (50 kg max).

The reason I ask is I already have some charmoise lambs from my lleyn ewe lambs so could just try some and see. September lambing has been on my mind for a while slow growing charmoise lambs should be easy enough to keep over winter and should hit 40kg easy enough by Easter with simple cheap forage crops or silage even. I think it would be easier than trying to lamb old lleyn ewes in January to try and sell at the same time. Not sure ifi have the balls to try it though but might try a few if these charmoise lambs don't sell very well in late winter when I'd normally be selling them. Some cashflow in late spring would be quite nice especially if it's a long expensive winter.

 

[CopperBeech]

The reason I ask is I already have some charmoise lambs from my lleyn ewe lambs so could just try some and see. September lambing has been on my mind for a while slow growing charmoise lambs should be easy enough to keep over winter and should hit 40kg easy enough by Easter with simple cheap forage crops or silage even. I think it would be easier than trying to lamb old lleyn ewes in January to try and sell at the same time. Not sure ifi have the balls to try it though but might try a few if these charmoise lambs don't sell very well in late winter when I'd normally be selling them. Some cashflow in late spring would be quite nice especially if it's a long expensive winter.

Throw the ram out with them in April and find out!

 

[hendrebc]

Throw the ram out with them in April and find out!

I might but won't if hoggs are £100+ though

 

[unlacedgecko]

The breeder I bought my charmoise rams from breeds them out of season. Not twice a year, more like once every 10 months. The ewes do fine.

What I think the charmoise lacks is prolificy and a little more milk would be nice. The lleyn will probably fix that but a pd, lacaune or a little bit of fin could also work. If you don't mind the wool, a 3/4 charmoise 1/4 fin or lacaune x charmoise might be nice as a ewe. However I like my ewes small (50 kg max).

Why the small ewe size? Do you bit struggle to finish lambs in time with such a small dam?

 

[Boso]

Why the small ewe size? Do you bit struggle to finish lambs in time with such a small dam?

My quest for efficiency and kg meat produced per hectare. The larger prolific animals require to much cake/pellets to maintain condition and production on the land I graze. I graze swales, conservation sites etc.
Apart from that, this might sound really silly to some. There are some infrastructure limitations which tot me make it more economical to run 50kg ewes and not 80kg ewes. I can run more per hectare on the crap grazing I have and more ewes per truckload (which is my biggest limitation atm).

I have a lot of milk in my breeding (pd, swifter, bbb, lacaune). Small ewes can be milky and I'm only going for twins each time they lamb not triplets.
I'll try and get some pics up this week.

 

[neilo]

Throw the ram out with them in April and find out!

@hendrebc will need to use a ram that is aseasonal too, so that he is fertile and up for the job in March/April. Charmoise again perhaps? But then he'd perhaps be struggling to have 40kg lambs at 4-5 months old over the winter?

 

[hendrebc]

@hendrebc will need to use a ram that is aseasonal too, so that he is fertile and up for the job in March/April. Charmoise again perhaps? But then he'd perhaps be struggling to have 40kg lambs at 4-5 months old over the winter?

I'd use the charmoise again yes seeing as I already have the 2 rams. I don't know how it would work but it's still an idea now amyway. When is Easter 2020? They might have more than 4-5 months if Easter is late. They still probably wouldn't be heavy enough? Like I said it's only an idea for now. Come December when it's cold and mud everywhere or snow on the ground I'll probably think I was mental to even consider keeping yoing lambs over winter