Water logging, soil structure and much more.

Dolomite

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South Yorkshire
At the risk of starting a cyber war here but non the less worth asking and starting a discussion.

As a contractor I go over many fields and acres and thus you remember certain fields or patches/ places that hold water, are heavy, badly compacted and so on. You also remember what work you have done to the fields we work and what you see the neighbors doing and others on the rounds. I have noticed that on farms that direct drill / min till or or run no plough systems. Water logging is becoming more of an issue in places I've never seen water stand before. The same goes for when looking over hedges, fields that are usually dry or cope well are now looking very wet and like you would soon sink in and the crops look to show this as they look to be struggling.

There could be many factors affecting this such as the heavily mined area we are in. The pits are no longer pumped out so naturally the water returns and then the water table rises. It's as likely to come up through the soil as go down through the soil as it's a predominantly fractured limestone and sandstone bed rock area.

Really we haven't had that much rain this winter so far here but the first bit that came it sat in many places.

Now there are many large farms round here and small ones that run min till, direct drilling systems and other practices assosiated.

So my question and query is; as well as other influencing factors and local to this area as well as natioanally. Could it be that these min till systems are starting to cause the problem as the subsoiling and deep cultivation of a whole field has now become as 1 in 5 year job or a even greater? I'm on the fence as to which systems work best as we contract out to our customers requirements. But starting to see a declining quality of soil and field quality in places makes me think about what's going on. I'm not saying anyone is farming badly I'm curious to other people's thoughts and experiences.

Many of the fields don't seem to have the nice soil texture and tilth however, this could be down to lack of organic matter as there is little stock in the area for fym.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I see you offer ploughing as a service but not min till...:rolleyes:

I take your point but there are just as many ploughed soils that are waterlogged as non ploughed ones. With ploughed ground the puddles are below the surface.

I think we're all neglecting soil structure and drainage. Many of the pipes laid with grant assistance in the 60s and 70s are in need of repair or replacement IMHO.
 

Kevtherev

Member
Location
Welshpool Powys
When the drainage grants were stopped in the late 80s a lot of drainage hasn't been done.
Lots of land needs re draining or the old system maintaining in better condition.
Nothing worse than waterlogged unworkable soils.
 

SimonD

Member
Location
Dorset
I don't carry half the field home on my boots in our zerotill system, which to me demonstrates better water filtration. I think Brisel may have a point though with drainage and deep tillage causing damage, I know a lot of our drains were relatively shallow so susceptible to damage when sub-soiling with the Trio, something less common than when ploughing.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Mole draining is of great benefit in both minimum tillage and conventional tilled soils.
Done properly in good conditions a mole will last a long time

... if the drains were put in properly to begin with - gravel to near subsoiling depth and the drains deep enough to avoid damage by the mole plough. Outfalls kept clear, ditches kept clear etc
 

Kevtherev

Member
Location
Welshpool Powys
... if the drains were put in properly to begin with - gravel to near subsoiling depth and the drains deep enough to avoid damage by the mole plough. Outfalls kept clear, ditches kept clear etc

Indeed
The amount of repair work I get to do after cowboys is unreal
And those naughty folk with deep subsoilers![emoji85][emoji85][emoji85][emoji85]
 

Fish

Member
Location
North yorkshire
There is no substitute for good drainage, deep cultivations and ploughing will only mask the problem, not make it go a way.
I guess that in many cases water logging/ ponding is just caused by lack of maintenance, a few weeks ditching and jetting might just solve some of these problems.
We are finding the reverse, the less we do the better the land drains, but we do spend time looking after the drainage systems.
 

Crf450

New Member
image.jpeg
Worms at work.
image.jpeg
Surface of dd land appears wetter for 24/48hrs after rain, however after surface water has gone the land is able to support traffic, previously when we ploughed, water ponded below the surface resulting in plough depth ruts. Drainage appears to be improving as the years pass, and this year the worms appear to have been very busy, clearing nearly all the chopped straw already.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Proper no till fields with decent biology soak water better than anything

No till won't make an impermeable sub soil permeable. A lot of permanent pasture has an impermeable layer underneath - that's why it is in permanent grass.

Get the underlying drainage sorted and most practices are possible.
 

Crf450

New Member
No till won't make an impermeable sub soil permeable. A lot of permanent pasture has an impermeable layer underneath - that's why it is in permanent grass.

Get the underlying drainage sorted and most practices are possible.
Couldn't agree more, I now use the time I had spent ploughing sorting the drainage, then the hedge cutting whilst ground conditions are dry. Moving this spring from strip till to no till so hoping water logging not going to be a problem, mole tunnels should help as they're appearing all over the farm.
 
When I first went to our local soils group we had a meeting about why we were seeing problems in the fields ,,,,,,, he then put a slide show up of tractors from the 70's / 80's about 6 to 8 ton all running around on dual wheels or terra tyres ,, then up went a slide show of modern today stuff , 13 ton + stuff with a front weight on , 650 or 710 tyres ,,,,, when you looked at what it was doing half the time you wondered why it had a front weight on , 18 months later I sold our 13 ton tractor and replaced it with a 7 1/2 ton one and I think it has helped a lot in soil condition ,,,,,,,
 
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Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Those old tyres were cross plies running at 30+ psi (except the Terra tyres), not today's radials running at 12-15 psi if set up correctly.

Deep compaction is purely down to axle weights which is where modern kit doesn't compare so favourably. By deep compaction I'm talking below subsoiler levels of 18"+
 

Acke

Member
Location
Sweden Enköping
We have strictly DD for 4 years now and compare our fields to neighbours fields .
And it is less water on our fields nowdays than 5 years ago. And less compare to others.
We have a heavy clay soil 50-67% clay and 2- 10%OM. Our drainage is no better than neighbours! No heavy tractors exept for an old 4955JD pulling subsoiler under dry and hard conditions, normaly pulled by a JD 6170 . We run no graintrailer in field exept on headlands. Mostly duals 650 on tracor in field in front of drill , strawharrow and subsoiler.
I'm sure it help us but we can do more , mayby covercrops?
But we fare North and window is small to get covercrops in.
It is my next project !
 

Crf450

New Member
No till won't make an impermeable sub soil permeable. A lot of permanent pasture has an impermeable layer underneath - that's why it is in permanent grass.

Get the underlying drainage sorted and most practices are possible.
I couldn't agree more,and the time saved by dd, I use for drainage works, moving from strip till to no till this spring, mole tunnels should help with surface drainage and they're appearing all over the farm. I am also now very fussy about soil conditions before travelling over it.
 
Those old tyres were cross plies running at 30+ psi (except the Terra tyres), not today's radials running at 12-15 psi if set up correctly.

Deep compaction is purely down to axle weights which is where modern kit doesn't compare so favourably. By deep compaction I'm talking below subsoiler levels of 18"+

Early on maybe but my tractors of the eighties were all on radials albeit not as good as today's , 7 ton tractor on duals all round treads very lightly , ,,,,, if I recall correctly terra tyres are actually cross plays , but may be wrong .
Any way in myself I feel better that I am running around with a lot less weight with similar tyres ,
 
No-till and direct drilling eventually have the capacity to hold more water, and hold it for a longer time period. The soils stay at a more consistent temperature and with the residue layer on top, there is little surface evaporation.
In the fields that you see more water standing, has any cover cropping been incorporated into the dd cropping?
 

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