What causes a Rig?

[sjewart]

Right so going through my tup lambs the day and discovered two rigs (one ball showing, the other not there).

Now iv never had a rig in at least 10+ years. The rigs were definitely sired by different rams.

Just wondered what the cause was? I thought it might be genetic on the lambs' sire side but maybe it's wrong nutrition at conception time? Iv no idea [emoji848]

Would like to get to the bottom of it as gona take a serious financial hit with them and don't want to be in same position next year.

 

[yellowbelly]

Are they by the same tup?

I remember once being told that it is hereditary - no idea if that's true or not

Where's @bovine when you need him?

 

[sjewart]

Are they by the same tup?

I remember once being told that it is hereditary - no idea if that's true or not

Where's @bovine when you need him?

Definitely by different tups!

 

[yellowbelly]

From t'internet......suggests it's heritable in goats..........
Cryptorchidism
Cryptorchidism occurs when either one or both testes fail to descend from the abdominal cavity into the scrotum. The retained testicle may be located at any point along the normal path of descent. Among unilateral cryptorchids, the right testicle is retained in the abdomen in approximately 80% to 90% of affected animals.17,18 A higher incidence also has been reported in intersex animals. However, cryptorchidism is not related to the intersex condition in Angora goats. In Angora bucks, cryptorchidism is a recessive trait.19The diagnosis is made by physical examination. Cryptorchidism is rare in ruminants, and cases often are complicated by a previous hemicastration. If either the history or physical findings suggest the presence of a testicle within the abdominal cavity, then an exploratory laparotomy should be performed to remove the retained testicle. Because this condition is thought to be heritable, cryptorchid bucks should not be used for breeding, and their sires and dams also should be culled.20

 

[sjewart]

From t'internet......suggests it's heritable in goats..........
Cryptorchidism
Cryptorchidism occurs when either one or both testes fail to descend from the abdominal cavity into the scrotum. The retained testicle may be located at any point along the normal path of descent. Among unilateral cryptorchids, the right testicle is retained in the abdomen in approximately 80% to 90% of affected animals.17,18 A higher incidence also has been reported in intersex animals. However, cryptorchidism is not related to the intersex condition in Angora goats. In Angora bucks, cryptorchidism is a recessive trait.19The diagnosis is made by physical examination. Cryptorchidism is rare in ruminants, and cases often are complicated by a previous hemicastration. If either the history or physical findings suggest the presence of a testicle within the abdominal cavity, then an exploratory laparotomy should be performed to remove the retained testicle. Because this condition is thought to be heritable, cryptorchid bucks should not be used for breeding, and their sires and dams also should be culled.20

Thank you, that's interesting.

 

[AftonShepherd]

We normally.get 2 or 3 every year out of about 1100 lambs, no idea if they're related though.

We did once have quite a few in one heft at another farm and later discovered that we'd bought a shearling with one testicle so heritability may well exist.

 

[som farmer]

bought a pedigree Hereford bull, noticed he only had 1 ball, breeder only realised when it was pointed out to him, took a chance and bought him for store price, fertility tested 4 times now, each time he came in at highest score of bulls tested, loads of calves from him, but I admit to never checking a calf to see if they had 2 !

 

[AftonShepherd]

I've had 3 dogs in the last few years with only one. First one was pointed out to me.after he was sold, discovered a young pot licker with one after checking the rest lol, and bought one since (was told before buying though). Not something I was ever in the habit of checking before.

 

[sjewart]

We normally.get 2 or 3 every year out of about 1100 lambs, no idea if they're related though.

We did once have quite a few in one heft at another farm and later discovered that we'd bought a shearling with one testicle so heritability may well exist.

I have at least two rigs out of 29 . Will need to check the lambs in the batch that is away from home but I think there is another one amongst them. All off different sires which made me wonder if there are other influences.

 

[sjewart]

bought a pedigree Hereford bull, noticed he only had 1 ball, breeder only realised when it was pointed out to him, took a chance and bought him for store price, fertility tested 4 times now, each time he came in at highest score of bulls tested, loads of calves from him, but I admit to never checking a calf to see if they had 2 !

That's a stroke of luck for you!

 

[sjewart]

I've had 3 dogs in the last few years with only one. First one was pointed out to me.after he was sold, discovered a young pot licker with one after checking the rest lol, and bought one since (was told before buying though). Not something I was ever in the habit of checking before.

That's a lot of one testacles! I check every tup when they are tagged. The two I found today will have to go fat at great financial loss. Of course the two were in my top ten tups pile [emoji853]

 

[neilo]

That's a lot of one testacles! I check every tup when they are tagged. The two I found today will have to go fat at great financial loss. Of course the two were in my top ten tups pile [emoji853]

If you checked them all when they were tagged (I assume that’s at birth or soon after?), they had both then, but have lost one since, I would suggest it sounds like some kind of infection that has gone through them, rather than anything genetic. I’d check the others very closely for testicular abnormalities too, rather than sell any that might be developing a problem.

I’m convinced that being born with one, or no, balls isn’t just down to genes. Some years we have none at all, other years, with similar breeding, we might have up to half a dozen. I think there might be all manner of things responsible, that might have affected the ewes at some stage during pregnancy. It could be a virus, a bacterial infection, or a trace element deficiency? No two years are ever the same though, even when the same rams are used over the same ewes.

 

[AftonShepherd]

That's a lot of one testacles! I check every tup when they are tagged. The two I found today will have to go fat at great financial loss. Of course the two were in my top ten tups pile [emoji853]

I don't keep many tups but always check their balls when I'm marking the rest of the lambs. At least that way they don't get overweight for the fat and/or you can get them away quicker.

 

[sjewart]

If you checked them all when they were tagged (I assume that’s at birth or soon after?), they had both then, but have lost one since, I would suggest it sounds like some kind of infection that has gone through them, rather than anything genetic. I’d check the others very closely for testicular abnormalities too, rather than sell any that might be developing a problem.

I’m convinced that being born with one, or no, balls isn’t just down to genes. Some years we have none at all, other years, with similar breeding, we might have up to half a dozen. I think there might be all manner of things responsible, that might have affected the ewes at some stage during pregnancy. It could be a virus, a bacterial infection, or a trace element deficiency? No two years are ever the same though, even when the same rams are used over the same ewes.

@neilo this is the first iv ever checked their testacles. I only tag them now at 5 months old.

I'm pretty sure it's not an infection that's going through them but it may be that the ewes did suffer from one in pregnancy (though none were obviously sick) or I agree it's possible it could be a mineral deficiency in pregnancy.

 

[neilo]

@neilo this is the first iv ever checked their testacles. I only tag them now at 5 months old.

I'm pretty sure it's not an infection that's going through them but it may be that the ewes did suffer from one in pregnancy (though none were obviously sick) or I agree it's possible it could be a mineral deficiency in pregnancy.

Sorry, I assumed you would have checked the basics at birth, or soon after, so balls must have disappeared since. Would it not be normal practice to give the a once over when you tail them, regardless of tagging?

I suspect lots of things ‘pass through’ without us seeing anything particularly, SBV being one example. It only causes deformed lambs, etc if it infects at a certain stage of pregnancy, but who knows what minor effect it might have at other stages. Undershot jaws are another one. Some years none at all, other years half a dozen. There is definitely something more than just genetics at play imo.

 

[Dry Rot]

From experience of dogs, I would say usually genetic and often associated with late descent.

Nature is constantly experimenting. Chromosomes are like lines of computer code. Get a space or a comma out of place in computer code and you get a gliche that can shut down an airport. Get the same in inheritance and Nature tries out another experiment. Some survive to breed, some don't. Geneticists deliberately damage or manipulate code to get new varieties.

Yes, an infection could damage the genetic code and cause the problem or it could become permanent. When you think you understand genetics, it will up and kick you in the butt.

I bred a line of dogs that occasionally threw one with a retained testicle and most were late coming down which was annoying when you're selling pups. Some didn't fully descend until a year old!

 

[sjewart]

Sorry, I assumed you would have checked the basics at birth, or soon after, so balls must have disappeared since. Would it not be normal practice to give the a once over when you tail them, regardless of tagging?

I suspect lots of things ‘pass through’ without us seeing anything particularly, SBV being one example. It only causes deformed lambs, etc if it infects at a certain stage of pregnancy, but who knows what minor effect it might have at other stages. Undershot jaws are another one. Some years none at all, other years half a dozen. There is definitely something more than just genetics at play imo.

I dont check at birth but a lesson learnt and will when tailing and scabivaxing in future.

I take it they won't drop now and only option is to hang them up on a hook?

 

[neilo]

I dont check at birth but a lesson learnt and will when tailing and scabivaxing in future.

I take it they won't drop now and only option is to hang them up on a hook?

I’ve always given everything a quick once over when I tail (& tag) them, checking for dodgy mouths, testicles, etc, then ear notching & noting any problems.

I have occasionally seen testicles that haven't Descended properly at 24 hours old, but they’re always dropped in order to be able to ring a couple of days later.

I assume yours are lambs born in the Spring? In which case I doubt they will have just not descended by now. Even if that were the case, surely they’ve ruled themselves out of being sold as breeding rams now anyway.
If they did have a testicle carried high, you’d be able to feel them above easily enough.

 

[sjewart]

I’ve always given everything a quick once over when I tail (& tag) them, checking for dodgy mouths, testicles, etc, then ear notching & noting any problems.

I have occasionally seen testicles that haven't Descended properly at 24 hours old, but they’re always dropped in order to be able to ring a couple of days later.

I assume yours are lambs born in the Spring? In which case I doubt they will have just not descended by now. Even if that were the case, surely they’ve ruled themselves out of being sold as breeding rams now anyway.
If they did have a testicle carried high, you’d be able to feel them above easily enough.

Thanks yes I thought as much. Il spray them today to go away.

I check mouths when I tag them - normally Sept/Oct time.

Just to add further fuel for thought these rig lambs also have twin tup lambs that feel absolutely fine.

You would think an infection would have damaged both tup lambs in utero.

I like straightforward answers and there just isn't one.

 

[neilo]

Thanks yes I thought as much. Il spray them today to go away.

I check mouths when I tag them - normally Sept/Oct time.

Just to add further fuel for thought these rig lambs also have twin tup lambs that feel absolutely fine.

You would think an infection would have damaged both tup lambs in utero.

I like straightforward answers and there just isn't one.

You’re right, I don’t think there is a straightforward answer. I’ve always put it down as ‘one of those things/sh*t happens sometimes’, for reasons unknown. No doubt there will be plenty of theories out there, probably as many as there are shepherds.

You’re clearly more patient than me. I’m watching for potential superstars from a very young age, and part of that is having to be functionally correct.