Who’s rights?

[Cymruambyth]

I’m really hoping someone can help me out. I’m looking to purchase a property with land after an elderly couple passed away. The property comes with woodland and also grazing land but the boundaries to the grazing land aren’t fenced off and have not been for years and years.neighbouring farms (at least 2) let their livestock graze the land. Enquiries show that years back (around 20 years) the neighbouring farms were paying some rent to graze the land but as the elderly couple grew older payments seemed to stop. The elderly couple and various family members (who live away) continued to use the land to store equipment, cut trees, repair walls so the farmers haven’t had exclusive use of the land. Would the farmers be able to claim tenancy if they haven’t paid rent? I’m assuming they can’t claim possession as they haven’t had exclusive use of the land?
As the new owner (hopefully soon) I need to know what my rights are and if they have rights to the land? I would like to repair the boundaries etc and take back full control of the land but can I do this? Please can anyone advise where I start? should I approach the farmers to gather their understanding of the situation and what rights they think they have i.e tenants? Thank you

 

[egbert]

Cripes.....I hope this land is cheap!

What does the vendor have to say? I would want their position in writing at the very least.

 

[Cymruambyth]

Cripes.....I hope this land is cheap!

What does the vendor have to say? I would want their position in writing at the very least.

The house and land is unfortunately not cheap and we are using every penny for the sale so If I then cannot access my land will be very sad. The sellers seem very laid back ‘they haven’t had exclusive use, they haven’t done any maintenance so it shouldn’t be a problem getting them off’! I really don’t know though and I have no idea where to get proper advice. The boundaries have been down for soooo long. But if they haven’t paid rent could they still claim AHA tenancy that’s my concern?

 

[Cymruambyth]

The house and land is unfortunately not cheap and we are using every penny for the sale so If I then cannot access my land will be very sad. The sellers seem very laid back ‘they haven’t had exclusive use, they haven’t done any maintenance so it shouldn’t be a problem getting them off’! I really don’t know though and I have no idea where to get proper advice. The boundaries have been down for soooo long. But if they haven’t paid rent could they still claim AHA tenancy that’s my concern?

Or worse still possession??

 

[teslacoils]

The house and land is unfortunately not cheap and we are using every penny for the sale so If I then cannot access my land will be very sad. The sellers seem very laid back ‘they haven’t had exclusive use, they haven’t done any maintenance so it shouldn’t be a problem getting them off’! I really don’t know though and I have no idea where to get proper advice. The boundaries have been down for soooo long. But if they haven’t paid rent could they still claim AHA tenancy that’s my concern?

Your concern should be your solicitors concern. That's what you pay them for. Is the vendor selling with vacant possession - if so it's them who will be "getting them off", not you. Just refuse to exchange with vacant possession on completion.

 

[ISCO]

The contract should say vacant possession on completion. If it does it would allow you to sue the seller if any neighbour claims a tenancy or possession.

Your solicitor should be raising appropriate enquiries and if of concern should ask the seller to arrange deeds of surrender with the neighbours in respect of any possible oral tenancy. This would resolve all doubt.

To claim AHA tenancy then possession would have needed to commence prior to 1996. As I understand things for an AHA tenancy to arise the land would have needed to be ploughed. I do not think just grazing counts as AHA tenancy but may be wrong.

 

[Flatland guy]

Is there no boundary between the neighbours grazing land and potentially your new grazing land, no fences, no dykes, no hedges whatsoever? How would you know where the boundary is then

 

[egbert]

The contract should say vacant possession on completion. If it does it would allow you to sue the seller if any neighbour claims a tenancy or possession.

Your solicitor should be raising appropriate enquiries and if of concern should ask the seller to arrange deeds of surrender with the neighbours in respect of any possible oral tenancy. This would resolve all doubt.

To claim AHA tenancy then possession would have needed to commence prior to 1996. As I understand things for an AHA tenancy to arise the land would have needed to be ploughed. I do not think just grazing counts as AHA tenancy but may be wrong.

Wrong. Plenty of unploughed grassland/rough is AHA

OP...if your solicitor isn't bringing this to your close attention......double cripes

 

[Cymruambyth]

Is there no boundary between the neighbours grazing land and potentially your new grazing land, no fences, no dykes, no hedges whatsoever? How would you know where the boundary is then

There are broken fences and the walls have gaps. They need totally rebuilding. The boundaries are clear on the deeds so we would know where to put bee fences

 

[Flatland guy]

Re -read opening post again and it wants sorting either way before you purchase. re-itertate as others above Is the property for sale with vacant possession or not? The children of the elderly couple are just going for the easy route and it needs sorting ASAP at their expense. If not vacant possession probably wants to be a lot cheaper.

If seriously interested still just linger solicitors along but do not sign anything.

 

[puppet]

It may be your dream but now is the time to get your business head in gear. If you are using all your savings then be absolutely sure what you are buying. Your solicitor should be doing this for you. If any neighbours are a problem then it will cost you money and emotional energy to sort out.
Personally, if I had free grazing I would never dream of claiming possession but some are not so understanding

 

[teslacoils]

It may be your dream but now is the time to get your business head in gear. If you are using all your savings then be absolutely sure what you are buying. Your solicitor should be doing this for you. If any neighbours are a problem then it will cost you money and emotional energy to sort out.

To many folk are banding around the phrase "forever home". It isn't. If the paperwork isn't right walk away. If the legals aren't doing their job, get another one.

 

[Dry Rot]

Sadly, as I have learnt to my cost, not all solicitors or land agents are equal. Get on to their professional bodies (The Law Society and The Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors) and ask them for a list of professionals with special knowledge in the purchase of agricultural land in your area. That will give you a starting point. They should also be able to give you land values.

Advice on a newsgroup is worth exactly what you pay for it. If you engage a professional you can always appeal to their professional body when things go wrong and at the last resort, sue 'em. Probably, the cheapest element of a land purchase.

 

[Woody j]

You need a good solicitor

 

[Ffermer Bach]

The house and land is unfortunately not cheap and we are using every penny for the sale so If I then cannot access my land will be very sad. The sellers seem very laid back ‘they haven’t had exclusive use, they haven’t done any maintenance so it shouldn’t be a problem getting them off’! I really don’t know though and I have no idea where to get proper advice. The boundaries have been down for soooo long. But if they haven’t paid rent could they still claim AHA tenancy that’s my concern?

I think they could claim a one year FBT possibly, but if they did, I think that would be very unethical. I would get advice from a land agent. Where abouts are you by the way?

 

[le bon paysan]

You need a good solicitor

You need a good agricultural solicitor

 

[Cymruambyth]

Wrong. Plenty of unploughed grassland/rough is AHA

OP...if your solicitor isn't bringing this to your close attention......double cripes

I think they could claim a one year FBT possibly, but if they did, I think that would be very unethical. I would get advice from a land agent. Where abouts are you by the way?

What is FBT? North Wales area

 

[le bon paysan]

FBT , farm business tenancy

 

[Cymruambyth]

should I try talking to the farmers directly? To gauge their views? Maybe they’ll be understanding knowing a welsh family is wanting to move back to the area? Or am I being optimistic? If they haven’t paid rent could they still claim tenancy? Apparently one has been grazing the land since before 1986 and was paying rent up until 20 years ago

 

[britt]

Forget AHA or FBT, they can claim "occupancy" in the same way a squatter can. Best speak to the neighbours and get something in writing.