Who is REALLY paying for AG Subsidies???......... THE RICH

[turbo]

really so by pointing out that subs to agriculture help keep food prices lower for the tax payer im doing it no favours, I suggest that by whining and moaning at what I write rather than making a case for the subs yourself you are the one that's doing us farmers no favours some people on here are seriously easy to offend, bedwetters

Keep your insults to your self,you have no idea what I have done or not done but I can assure you it's been more productive than moaning on here,so have you done anything to make the case other than on here?

 

[FonterraFarmer]

Good in theory.. nz only has two meat companies and they just pay what the other one pays. Have no idea what Oz has in terms if processing companies though.
I think the subs will stay. In some way shape or form. That just my opinion. They might be stylishly renamed but unless it's a very very slow weaning off, it just stands to rock the boat too much for you guys and girls.
I don't mean this in a smarmy way either, my other posts on the subject have been largely tongue-in-cheek. The simple fact is, you have an awful lot of people, farmers especially, trying to eek a living on a small landmass. That's the way it is, and NZ is very opposite to that. Sure we have shitt wages and high costs, but it's found a balance. Try the sudden subs chop that we had in the late 70s?? and it would be the same strife multiplied by the population factor.. that is huge! Range rovers would be harder to shift than they are here, to put it mildly.

Mid 80's , after the 84 election, 1985 to the early 90's was quite hard and not just for farmers either but th associated service industries too, I know because I was there.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

The other point is that NZ in the 70s... well I don't know if you've been that backward and basic ever. Remember we only see the part portrayed by media.. but back then there were mk2 Cortinas etc like sandflies in nz. Especially farming communities, were and are pretty small and low budget, so when our rural sector felt the hit, it was just a hit. Spending was cut and it followed down the line.
Jump forward 40 years to an old country and there's a lot more set in stone.
You guys have way higher production costs and that's not an easy thing to get around, all of a sudden. We just stopped putting on super and the grass kept growing. Stopped spraying gorse and it grew too.
Will has a good point about taxation though. It has a big part to play in who gets to succeed.
What's it cost to run a ewe 12 months and finish 1.4 lambs in the ewekay? For my own curiosity? Near as I can get to local figures from accounting firm is $74 last year. I think £=$1.71 today.

No , not the Mk2 Cortina!!!

 

[brigadoon]

do you not think if demand increased due to a shortage of lamb here they would put their price up? theyd be mad not to

Outside of a farm shop where does a farmer set prices? You seem unable to grasp that you are dealing in world commodities and that there is a very efficient system for moving them around.NZ lamb trades at world price.

It is very unlikely that the UK will be affected by a shortage of lamb since there is plenty available outside the UK and at a considerably lower price

 

[brigadoon]

really so by pointing out that subs to agriculture help keep food prices lower for the tax payer im doing it no favours, I suggest that by whining and moaning at what I write rather than making a case for the subs yourself you are the one that's doing us farmers no favours some people on here are seriously easy to offend, bedwetters

In all your many posts you have never, ever provided any logical explantation of how subs to agriculture assist in keeping Uk food prices lower for anyone - taxpayer or not.

 

[Henarar]

It is very unlikely that the UK will be affected by a shortage of lamb since there is plenty available outside the UK and at a considerably lower price

Why do they not sell it here if they can get it here so cheap they could blow us out of our own market so why are they not doing it ?

 

[Tarw Coch]

Which is a fair point until you look at it more closely, nearly all of the first world countries do or market protection, and their are reasons for that, the cost of living is so much greater overheads and other factors are at play, farm size input prices the average daily income expected or needed.
Compare average incomes in countries with and without subs for farmers and just the national average in each country, a farmer that can live on £2 a day in his country doesn't need subs if the produces he grows is making him £5 a day. And in there country they are seen as well off.
Before people use statements like that they have to prove it's relevant.

A lot of people forget what profit means to a farmer. A farmer is taxed on profit it's the farms income over expenses it's the bit they live on when, statements like, subs were 90% of a farmers profit, that means subs made up 90% of what they lived on..... and we have a lot of loud voices on here that call for removal of subsidies just think about what that means it's not that farmers is not contributing to the nation. There net contribution to the uk economy is far greater than his sub so putting him out of business creates a net lost for the country, the country is not going to benefiting from not supporting him the oppersite is true, and as many have pointed out the public will not benifit from lower prices because they are out of business, as import already set the prices farmers get. The govermant is extremely unlikely to allow cheaper imports in to undercut uk farmers as that just increases the burden of support for farmers and does nothing to retail prices as I have shown they have little to no relation to retail prices.

As I pointed out it's now nearly impossible to start up a farm as it makes little money sense to do so. The money that's invested in even a small farm is so great even poor returns from bank interest are greater than most farms get even with subsidy. And now some are calling for subsidy to go all together.... if I sold my family farm I can guarantee that I would earn more from bank interest if I sold it. There are not many businesses setup that, that is true. We farmers put up with a lot so we can pass it on to our children.
I could see the argument for subs going if uk farmers net contribution to the uk was less than subs, that by lowering or removing subs food would get cheaper, and the country side was going to be better looked after.
As non of that is going to be true, that leaves me with subs will stay and they are going to be in some way retargeted to offer the public better value for there tax money.

My farms actual turn over is 5x the sub that turn over is income the farm made that was spent on the farm on inputs, this is the bit that contributes to the economy and it's the bit that will never return if land goes out of production. I think some people under estimate the amount of farms that would struggle if subs went, and the amount of irreplaceable skill that would leave the industry, and that the big players could absorb all the land that would come on to the retail market or for sale.
Without subs I cannot see it, yes some will be but only the best land. And it's most likely the poor land that will go out of production first, so straight off the bad land goes out of production because its poor land so, so does the 5x sub value added the farmer was giving that land verses the sub they were getting. So for every £1 in sub on that land that goes out of production £5 will be lost to the uk economy. Actually £6 as the farmer spent his profit and that no longer exists as well.
So all them livestock hill men hanging on by the skin of their teeth, for each £1 you gave them they added £6 to the economy. If that's not reason to keep them on the poor land what is.

And to remove subs you have to be sure it's in the benefit of the wider ecomamy, you have to be very curtain of the outcome
And I have got to say there is land near me that is barely farm able now, what % of uk land that will stop been farmed? Farm land attracts an average of £70/acre so times the area estimated to go out of production area by £350-£420 an acre that will be the net loss to the country. Hill land may be different, someone may provide the numbers for you.

To put farm income /catipital in context with subs last year it returned 1% of capital value, without subs it would be 0.5% what business would setup for that.

Some of the very best farms might pay 40% of their sub back in tax. Many more will pay 20% back in tax, others will pay little or no tax on their subs.

Take away subs and farms will be paying less tax, in fact there will probably be a lot entitled to some sort of income support. Take away subs and I wonder what the net effect on govt income/expenditure will be.

 

[Bossfarmer]

I suggest rather than get personal on here and calling me arrogant or whatever(water off a ducks back) people on this forum(who are farmers) get behind the cause for keeping subsidies because like it or not the rest of the world are getting them so low commodity prices are here to stay, rents may drop but not by as much as the sub, people trying to expand to stay sustainable will keep the pressure on rents

 

[brigadoon]

Why do they not sell it here if they can get it here so cheap they could blow us out of our own market so why are they not doing it ?

Because they are currently prevented from doing so by EU tarriffs.

 

[texel-tom]

I suggest rather than get personal on here and calling me arrogant or whatever(water off a ducks back) people on this forum(who are farmers) get behind the cause for keeping subsidies because like it or not the rest of the world are getting them so low commodity prices are here to stay, rents may drop but not by as much as the sub, people trying to expand to stay sustainable will keep the pressure on rents

So other than post some pretty ropey arguments on here what have you actually done personally to ensure the continuation of subsidies?

 

[turbo]

I suggest rather than get personal on here and calling me arrogant or whatever(water off a ducks back) people on this forum(who are farmers) get behind the cause for keeping subsidies because like it or not the rest of the world are getting them so low commodity prices are here to stay, rents may drop but not by as much as the sub, people trying to expand to stay sustainable will keep the pressure on rents

Come up with a good argument for us getting them,then yes we will get behind it,Carry on in the same vain as all your other threads,not a hope in hell of people getting behind it.I am 100% behind farmers still getting subs ,why wouldn't I be its free money.The system we have now is not working thats plain to see so it's got to change but to what?

 

[turbo]

Because they are currently prevented from doing so by EU tarriffs.

NZ carn't even fill the quota they have now

 

[Henarar]

Because they are currently prevented from doing so by EU tarriffs.

as above they don't fill there quota
why do you think this is ?
perhaps they can get better money elsewhere
perhaps if subs went production in this country would drop and so prices would rise, they would have to or they would still sell their product elsewhere as they do now
subs keep production up and so keep prices in the shops down simples

 

[Old McDonald]

Why do they not sell it here if they can get it here so cheap they could blow us out of our own market so why are they not doing it ?

They do not have the surplus lamb to send any more than they do. Australia is the same. This is old ground that we covered a couple of months back in another similar Bossfarmer's thread where he claimed that the Aussies would fill in any shortfall of NZ lamb. The Aussie sheep meat flock is falling and has been for a few years.

 

[brigadoon]

as above they don't fill there quota
why do you think this is ?
perhaps they can get better money elsewhere
perhaps if subs went production in this country would drop and so prices would rise, they would have to or they would still sell their product elsewhere as they do now
subs keep production up and so keep prices in the shops down simples

Or perhaps if the quota were removed production would flow to an open market where the wholesale price is double that of the UK.

Perhaps if subs went in this country production would not materiallly change at all since all but the poorest land would actually stay in production albeit not with the present owners. Equally perhaps we will move away from EU Tarriffs and food prices in the shops will fall.

Subs are not tied to production and do not keep production up. It is indeed simple - but not in the way you portray it.

 

[onthehoof]

Don't know why this thread is still running, headlines on news today is still shortage of money for NHS showing elderly laying on trolleys for hours on end, IFS predictions to downgrade outlook for manufacturing, and how national debt is at all time high.
Subs as we know them are history, stop whining and move on.

 

[onthehoof]

as above they don't fill there quota
why do you think this is ?
perhaps they can get better money elsewhere
perhaps if subs went production in this country would drop and so prices would rise, they would have to or they would still sell their product elsewhere as they do now
subs keep production up and so keep prices in the shops down simples

Can't agree with that. The current system i.e subs paid per acre rather than per head discourages production- where's the incentive to keep more sheep if you're getting the payment anyway, when subs go the only way to increase output will be to keep more animals or increase yields leading to higher production and lower prices

 

[turbo]

Don't know why this thread is still running, headlines on news today is still shortage of money for NHS showing elderly laying on trolleys for hours on end, IFS predictions to downgrade outlook for manufacturing, and how national debt is at all time high.
Subs as we know them are history, stop whining and move on.

If we poured every penny this country has got into the nhs it would still need more,it needs reform from top to bottom

 

[onthehoof]

If we poured every penny this country has got into the nhs it would still need more,it needs reform from top to bottom

No different to farming then

 

[Henarar]

Or perhaps if the quota were removed production would flow to an open market where the wholesale price is double that of the UK.

that is a different thing than removing our subs

Subs are not tied to production and do not keep production up. It is indeed simple - but not in the way you portray it.

that is where you are wrong IMHO