Why I'm quitting no till (for now)

[Robert G]

Compaction and blackgrass. Not enough OM and diversity. Sounds like the soil needs a break from cultivation and wheat.

Compaction and blackgrass. Not enough OM and diversity. Sounds like the soil needs a break from cultivation and wheat.

At our farmers group we were told that on average 35% of the field surface gets run over at harvest. When you get a wet harvest this creates deep compaction. Will OM and a different rotation stop my grain trailor weighing 20t laden ?

 

[Baling Hay]

If you dont put on bagged nitrogen, you dont get slugs.
my theory is that nitrogen makes the plants soft and so the slugs can eat more and breed faster.
i went organic in 99 and never saw another slug till 2010 when i reverted to chemicals

WHy did you quit organic?

 

[Will Blackburn]

At our farmers group we were told that on average 35% of the field surface gets run over at harvest. When you get a wet harvest this creates deep compaction. Will OM and a different rotation stop my grain trailor weighing 20t laden ?

We've gone mostly dairy with no-till arable breaks, from being dairy/arable/potatoes. After 5 years of cultivation the heavy land went unworkable and the light land went infertile. All down to the loss of OM. So the answer is mixed farming or less cultivation, adding OM is going to speed the improvement.

 

[yellow belly]

At our farmers group we were told that on average 35% of the field surface gets run over at harvest. When you get a wet harvest this creates deep compaction. Will OM and a different rotation stop my grain trailor weighing 20t laden ?

With a 9 m system we are down to 15 % wheeled with a 12 m system they are down to 10% wheeled on

When my father farmed in the 1970/80s he drilled 100 to 200 acres of cereals with a 4 m drill and a 5 m header 350 combineable 70 to 80 acres a metre full cultivation and 4 full time in the summer autumn at least 100 %wheeled no slug pellets disc and spring tine cultivation’s grain trailer stayed on headland wheat wheat winter barley winter osr with some grass leys

Now with 9m we drill 2700 split spring autumn 300 acres a metre with 4 in the summer and 2 in the winter 15 to 20% wheeled grain trailers only on the tramlines
Slug pellets for rape establishment and on wheat if it is needed less than 300 acres so farm too windy and dry and most wheat past 1 leaf stage
Half spring crops spreads fixed costs and reduces peak work loads on all equipment a maximum of 2 days spraying for any one crop 6 days drilling or harvesting
I can see use using narrower wheels and lighter tractors for drilling going forward
If we get too wet an autumn we will be 100% spring crops 2012 type
Although now we could drill wheat in mid September where bg is under control and time allows
Early drilling to beat the slugs is an effective system if bg is contained by the other crops

 

[Robert G]

We've gone mostly dairy with no-till arable breaks, from being dairy/arable/potatoes. After 5 years of cultivation the heavy land went unworkable and the light land went infertile. All down to the loss of OM. So the answer is mixed farming or less cultivation, adding OM is going to speed the improvement.

Our land is in good structure, we have a soil structure consultant and we grow beans, rape, wheat. It is just where the harvest vehicles travel that i am talking about, thats why i like dts or drills with deep tines to lift the damage out as we drill.

 

[Robert G]

With a 9 m system we are down to 15 % wheeled with a 12 m system they are down to 10% wheeled on

When my father farmed in the 1970/80s he drilled 100 to 200 acres of cereals with a 4 m drill and a 5 m header 350 combineable 70 to 80 acres a metre full cultivation and 4 full time in the summer autumn at least 100 %wheeled no slug pellets disc and spring tine cultivation’s grain trailer stayed on headland wheat wheat winter barley winter osr with some grass leys

Now with 9m we drill 2700 split spring autumn 300 acres a metre with 4 in the summer and 2 in the winter 15 to 20% wheeled grain trailers only on the tramlines
Slug pellets for rape establishment and on wheat if it is needed less than 300 acres so farm too windy and dry and most wheat past 1 leaf stage
Half spring crops spreads fixed costs and reduces peak work loads on all equipment a maximum of 2 days spraying for any one crop 6 days drilling or harvesting
I can see use using narrower wheels and lighter tractors for drilling going forward
If we get too wet an autumn we will be 100% spring crops 2012 type
Although now we could drill wheat in mid September where bg is under control and time allows
Early drilling to beat the slugs is an effective system if bg is contained by the other crops

We are on too many sites to have ctf , the investment would be unviable for us. Your system sounds perfect, what drill do you use and what land type and preparation are you into ?

 

[yellow belly]

We are on too many sites to have ctf , the investment would be unviable for us. Your system sounds perfect, what drill do you use and what land type and preparation are you into ?

We are spread over 30 miles more than 10 different blocks of land
70% heavy land silty clay ragdale hanslope most under drained with porous back fill combine in the mole direction use a twin leg following drill and combine tracks where possible

It has taken a few years to get to the 9 m system we now use a weaving gd 9 m and a 10.5 m header at 9 m tracks skip row harvest across the field at 10 .5 m the back at 7.5. At higher speed to keep the left and right of the header even this way we can unload on a tram line most of the time except in long fields in high yielding wheat this is usually early harvest with dry hard ground conditions not to pedantic as mole draining will follow the wheeling s if needed

 

[Renaultman]

its right

Slugs are no big deal here any more - they were a very big deal one upon a time

Its no single thing that has made the difference but IMO a combination of a change to ferric, stopping using insecticide, sulphur, better consolidation via zero till and a longer OSR rotation

we still pellet but not excessively at all

I have used very few slug pellets this year, I am also wary of using insecticides but that is turning into a battle with the agronomists. I aren't no till I am no plough. I am finding a tight but well subsoiled seed bed, Xpress and Vaderstaad. As much muck as I can access and Gypsum helps. I am also starting to think that variety helps. Costello has been very good but have heard nightmare stories about barrel. Not sure whether it was deter dressed but will ask. I have got thin areas in OSR and wheat but I accept it.

 

[franklin]

Rotation,rotation,rotation.Plenty arable farmers use no slug pellets.

While I seldom use insecticides unless really pushed, and usually only on the OSR, I cant avoid slugs & pellets. Straight into stubbles, ploughed, irrespective or rotation, leaving a green cover, leaving no cover, rolling multiple times makes veyr little difference. If its dry they just wait. There are always consequences to any system used, and BG and cranesbill are the consequence of my system. I dont expect to be able to change to a different system with no problems - there will just be other problems. Brome seems to be one folk are seeing whereas we see none after *ahem* a good ploughing.

While sad to hear the OP has needed to change away from no-till, I think it does underline the fact that not everyone will find success with it. All very well and good banging on about rotation, but if it doesnt pay the bills.....

 

[Clive]

that is a good point, there are sound pointers from the past

they were far better farmers than we are today - they had to be as they simply didn't have access to the quick fixes we have

yes they grew lower yields etc etc but its doesn't mean there is nothing to learn form the way they farmed, especialy their understanding of rotation and diversity

 

[Robert G]

We are spread over 30 miles more than 10 different blocks of land
70% heavy land silty clay ragdale hanslope most under drained with porous back fill combine in the mole direction use a twin leg following drill and combine tracks where possible

It has taken a few years to get to the 9 m system we now use a weaving gd 9 m and a 10.5 m header at 9 m tracks skip row harvest across the field at 10 .5 m the back at 7.5. At higher speed to keep the left and right of the header even this way we can unload on a tram line most of the time except in long fields in high yielding wheat this is usually early harvest with dry hard ground conditions not to pedantic as mole draining will follow the wheeling s if needed

thats clever stuff , very interesting, i like the cutting diagonal to empty tank on tramlines, think we will try that, that is something we can do . We are over far greater distances unfortunately.

 

[Richard III]

If you dont put on bagged nitrogen, you dont get slugs.
my theory is that nitrogen makes the plants soft and so the slugs can eat more and breed faster.
i went organic in 99 and never saw another slug till 2010 when i reverted to chemicals

I have seen this effect here, this is thin patch of wheat with too much N, other parts were fine.

Silicon sprays are interesting, they toughen up the leaf.

 

[Adeptandy]

I have used very few slug pellets this year, I am also wary of using insecticides but that is turning into a battle with the agronomists. I aren't no till I am no plough. I am finding a tight but well subsoiled seed bed, Xpress and Vaderstaad. As much muck as I can access and Gypsum helps. I am also starting to think that variety helps. Costello has been very good but have heard nightmare stories about barrel. Not sure whether it was deter dressed but will ask. I have got thin areas in OSR and wheat but I accept it.

What are the stories with Barrel, first time I'm growing it this year and will be DD after 10 year HLS Grass

 

[Renaultman]

What are the stories with Barrel, first time I'm growing it this year and will be DD after 10 year HLS Grass

Only know of one neighbour losing a field to slugs, my only slight problem has been kerrin, which is manageable. As said, the Costello just seems to romp away and Grafton is being its usual wallfower self.

 

[glasshouse]

WHy did you quit organic?

Main reason was the market crashed after credit crunch, and they let cheap russian "organic" wheat in which buggered it totally.
said grain is now banned, so prices back up to £280, but too late for me.

 

[mikep]

Seeing as I have been asked why I am quitting no till on another thread, Here We Are!

Several reasons:
1. The main one. I have never managed to get on top of the slug problem. Tiny little grey field slugs that don't bother my slug traps but then decimate my crops every bloomin' year.
2. The system dictating the rotation. As a fairly small scale farm I find it hard to justify spring crops that barely pay. Spring beans did well but little profit. Spring barley disappointed at barely 2t/acre. I have no interest in growing linseed or millet etc as I cannot see a margin. If these paid then I could have dropped OSR and probably solved the slug issue.
3. As a mixed farm with baling and muckspreading sometimes we have struggled to avoid creating compaction.
4. I'm a bit uncomfortable with all the extra glyphosate and pellets I've been using. Doesn't feel right somehow. Fails the gut-feeling test.
5. Cost savings have been outstripped by spending on drills, pelleter, pellets, gps, lower yields etc.
6. Too bloody stressful.... is it a crop, isn't it? Need to walk every square metre and still not sure until May! Life is too short.

That's most of the reasons anyway.

I have been having the same thoughts especially this year as late harvesting means it's too wet to drill at present.
I looked at my system and suddenly thought why the f**k am I growing these break crops as the profit is wafer thin and they have pushed out my autumn drilling.
The sub takes care of any rent and leaves a bit, the bunny hugging pays household bills and all the machinery is paid for (a long time ago) so I don't need to gamble on hit or miss crops.
I have decided to basically run a fertility building fallow followed by wheat. Whole farm profit not really affected as if you take into account timeliness, savings on herbicides and fertiliser and less stress what's not to like. Have to keep a minimum area of spring cereal for bunny hugging but quality time here I come. I must say this seems to stack up for me but I have no high yield potential on this land and no monthly outgoings for shiny new kit. I just realised that I have been a busy fool for years.

 

[Renaultman]

Is there any value in keeping the drill and using it when conditions are perfect?

 

[rob1]

At our farmers group we were told that on average 35% of the field surface gets run over at harvest. When you get a wet harvest this creates deep compaction. Will OM and a different rotation stop my grain trailor weighing 20t laden ?

perhaps keeping trailers on the headlands would help, not trying to be clever but if weight is causing a problem then the solution is less weight

 

[Robert G]

I have been having the same thoughts especially this year as late harvesting means it's too wet to drill at present.
I looked at my system and suddenly thought why the fudge am I growing these break crops as the profit is wafer thin and they have pushed out my autumn drilling.
The sub takes care of any rent and leaves a bit, the bunny hugging pays household bills and all the machinery is paid for (a long time ago) so I don't need to gamble on hit or miss crops.
I have decided to basically run a fertility building fallow followed by wheat. Whole farm profit not really affected as if you take into account timeliness, savings on herbicides and fertiliser and less stress what's not to like. Have to keep a minimum area of spring cereal for bunny hugging but quality time here I come. I must say this seems to stack up for me but I have no high yield potential on this land and no monthly outgoings for shiny new kit. I just realised that I have been a busy fool for years.

you done better than most busy fools ... you realised

 

[DRC]

OSR seems to be a major problem , either avoiding flee beetle, pigeons or slugs, before and after the rape. Stopped growing it years ago, and hardly use a pellet. I do wonder if pig slurry applied before ploughing, helps deter them. I'm sure sewage sludge does.
Better off with continuous wheat , mucked every year, on heavy ground. I have applied for the 2 year legume fallow in the new mid tier application on 30 acres, which I'm surprised you no tillers haven't jumped after. It pays £511/ha, and you can keep topping black grass and are building fertility . Looks much better than beans or OSR to me.