Will No till put paid to the plough ? asks a piece in the FT.

[Vader]

I said that there wasn’t a soil type that couldn’t successfully be direct drilled and that any failures ( including all the ones I’ve had ) are always down to management and not soil type. I didn’t say that I condoned ploughing. You might have very valid reasons for doing it such as not having 100k for a drill, you just enjoy it ( like I do ) or you want to incorporate muck or weeds.

We had 3 different brands of DD in the past demo here. None established better than the tillage method.
What I read about DD, even from leaders in the field, is that you got to expect a yield drop at first.
On marginal land can not really afford the yield loss for a few years.

But still think if you plough plenty of stuff back in, soil biology still improves. When I went organic, chopped and ploughed everything and soil did improve and worm numbers increased. (Old man used to bale and sell all straw off to the cattle men)

But sadly at Moment I am now doing the same, as bps going and can not get in sfi as got stuff in Cs. So bale all straw and goes to power stations to help make up the difference. Gov dont want us to grow food now, so what does soil quality really matter..?

 

[Vader]

One thing that needs further exploring is drone seeding of cover crops into unharvested crops

Just put it on with fert Spreader. Done it with mustard for years.

 

[Vader]

It is being explored.
However our HSE is the biggest problem in the UK.
The rest of the world and especially China is way, way ahead of us with drone farming tech and making it work.

But our HSE say “No!”

Not sure how wildlife will like drones buzzing about all the time...

 

[Hindsight]

We had 3 different brands of DD in the past demo here. None established better than the tillage method.
What I read about DD, even from leaders in the field, is that you got to expect a yield drop at first.
On marginal land can not really afford the yield loss for a few years.

But still think if you plough plenty of stuff back in, soil biology still improves. When I went organic, chopped and ploughed everything and soil did improve and worm numbers increased. (Old man used to bale and sell all straw off to the cattle men)

But sadly at Moment I am now doing the same, as bps going and can not get in sfi as got stuff in Cs. So bale all straw and goes to power stations to help make up the difference. Gov dont want us to grow food now, so what does soil quality really matter..?

Off topic but I am intrigued why you cannot run a SFI agreement alongside a CSS agreement? I presume down to the options in CSS - but again intrigued why not? I have worked with a few farmers now putting together SFI applications where they have part field parcels in various CSS options (AB1,AB8,AB6,AB15,AB9) and just worked around them with SFI options. Have in two cases submitted application and the agreements went live January 1st and February 1st. I think you have explained in an SFI thread somewhere, so maybe direct me there. Regards.

 

[Two Tone]

We had 3 different brands of DD in the past demo here. None established better than the tillage method.
What I read about DD, even from leaders in the field, is that you got to expect a yield drop at first.
On marginal land can not really afford the yield loss for a few years.

But still think if you plough plenty of stuff back in, soil biology still improves. When I went organic, chopped and ploughed everything and soil did improve and worm numbers increased. (Old man used to bale and sell all straw off to the cattle men)

But sadly at Moment I am now doing the same, as bps going and can not get in sfi as got stuff in Cs. So bale all straw and goes to power stations to help make up the difference. Gov dont want us to grow food now, so what does soil quality really matter..?

The only way to have a DD demo is to have it for at least a month and decide which days of that month it is best to use it.
In the Autumn it will usually be as early as possible and in the Spring as late as possible.

You cannot compromise with DD like you can conveniently and get away with it.

The only way it will work is IF you WANT it to work.
Forget everything you ever thought about how and when to drill your crop conventionally.

Start off by deciding which fields are in the most ideal conditions for a DD to work.
Then gradually work round the farm over at least 3 years until you can sell your conventional kit.

 

[Two Tone]

Not sure how wildlife will like drones buzzing about all the time...

Actually, they get quite used to it. My farmed deer hardly bat an eyelid any more.

 

[sjt01]

The only way to have a DD demo is to have it for at least a month and decide which days of that month it is best to use it.
In the Autumn it will usually be as early as possible and in the Spring as late as possible.

You cannot compromise with DD like you can conveniently and get away with it.

The only way it will work is IF you WANT it to work.
Forget everything you ever thought about how and when to drill your crop conventionally.

Start off by deciding which fields are in the most ideal conditions for a DD to work.
Then gradually work round the farm over at least 3 years until you can sell your conventional kit.

I am convinced that more important than the drill is the cover crop. All our winter crops go in straight behind maize, less than a week after harvest, with a tine drill. Maize strip tilled on the green. We soon found that strip tilling with nothing growing for over a month previously, did not work without cultivation.

 

[Vader]

Actually, they get quite used to it. My farmed deer hardly bat an eyelid any more.

Was thinking more on the bird life.
Plus over arable a will be more drone activity than grassland

 

[Vader]

Off topic but I am intrigued why you cannot run a SFI agreement alongside a CSS agreement? I presume down to the options in CSS - but again intrigued why not? I have worked with a few farmers now putting together SFI applications where they have part field parcels in various CSS options (AB1,AB8,AB6,AB15,AB9) and just worked around them with SFI options. Have in two cases submitted application and the agreements went live January 1st and February 1st. I think you have explained in an SFI thread somewhere, so maybe direct me there. Regards.

Main problem is that I have lot of CS options as been in environment schemes since forever it seems.
There are a few bits of sfi I could do but they not worth it without the better options, which Cs is stopping, even though they different options.

It's been my complaint to defra from the start that anyone who been in schemes already get penalised now as hard to make the spf back up.
Buy I know farmers who did next to nothing environment wise before have regained most their sfp via sfi with little production loss.

 

[Will Blackburn]

The Scot’s seem to be good at harvesting and drilling at the same time

There’s a lot more spring barley and turnip rape grown up there for a reason. It’s nice to turn a field round in 24 hrs but it’s not without risks, and where subsidies are removed farming needs to be de-risked.

 

[Vader]

The only way to have a DD demo is to have it for at least a month and decide which days of that month it is best to use it.
In the Autumn it will usually be as early as possible and in the Spring as late as possible.

You cannot compromise with DD like you can conveniently and get away with it.

The only way it will work is IF you WANT it to work.
Forget everything you ever thought about how and when to drill your crop conventionally.

Start off by deciding which fields are in the most ideal conditions for a DD to work.
Then gradually work round the farm over at least 3 years until you can sell your conventional kit.

I wanted it to work.
Same as when I went organic I wanted it to work.
Both I researched and did some small scale first, went on talks and courses.

All the figures showed yield loss in first few years of a value more than it would cost for the extra pass working it up.
So spent on GPS kit instead and increased yields/efficiency that way.

 

[ajd132]

There’s a lot more spring barley and turnip rape grown up there for a reason. It’s nice to turn a field round in 24 hrs but it’s not without risks, and where subsidies are removed farming needs to be de-risked.

Still don’t know what you are saying to be honest? Our climate stops us drilling in the last two weeks of September?

 

[Hindsight]

Main problem is that I have lot of CS options as been in environment schemes since forever it seems.
There are a few bits of sfi I could do but they not worth it without the better options, which Cs is stopping, even though they different options.

It's been my complaint to defra from the start that anyone who been in schemes already get penalised now as hard to make the spf back up.
Buy I know farmers who did next to nothing environment wise before have regained most their sfp via sfi with little production loss.

I am still confused Vader. But without knowing your CSS scheme and the options etc I cannot comment. Hopefully will work out for you.

 

[snarling bee]

Ploughing bad black grass or brome fields isn’t a bad idea, I’ve done it once or twice but I had the view of never ploughing it again.
I think if you plough on a 20/25% basis it might not be successful as you’ll be digging up the seeds you’ve buried.
The late Jim Bullock had a field that he direct drilled for 8 years and had got on top of his grass weed problems. He had a particularly wet harvest and because he’d ruined his soil structure he ploughed the field and he said after he ploughed it his black grass problem re emerged. His conclusion was that he’d discovered that black grass seeds could survive at least 8 years of being buried.
We also had a field which had been direct drilled for years and didn’t have black grass until the government dug up the field to install a pipeline.

Ploughing needs to be well done, otherwise there is no point.
I have had success ploughing on successive years as often as I have had problems.
Anybody who doubts the success of ploughing as a management tool for grass weed control should go to the Agrii site at Stow Longa.

 

[thesilentone]

I've got a great idea as a compromise, but don't think it will ever catch on. It's called rotational farming.

 

[snarling bee]

I have got Winter Beans, OSR and will have spring oats in the ground this year - does that count?

Continuous Wheat will give as better Gross Margin though as a 'rotation'. Its an 25 page thread to debate Net Margin though.

 

[fudge]

Ploughing is ok but it’s costly. Looking at the rotational SFI options available “all first wheat rotation” is much easier to achieve. I think this implies less ploughing and a substantial reduction in cost. Cultivation method alone is no panacea for weather proofing and weed control. Without Subsidies of one sort or another we would be doing continuous cereals which I wouldn’t attempt without ploughing. The most irrational subsidy I have come across is taxpayers cash for ludicrously expensive “direct drills”, isn’t the AIA enough?

 

[Vader]

I am still confused Vader. But without knowing your CSS scheme and the options etc I cannot comment. Hopefully will work out for you.

I confused as well
Had a call from rpa asking why not complete the sfi application. Told them options I want I can not get.
They played about for an hr, then agreed I could not because the CS options were stopping sfi ones, even though not same.

Suggested I pull out of Cs early and then do a complete fresh sfi.
But got to get in writing I can do that or I could bin CS and then find I not invited go sfi and end up with nothing.
3+ months of email and calls and still no answer...

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thats the trouble with these corn boys if they used some decent plants to start with they would not have this seeding crap every year to argue about as the plants would just grow back and if they did need some more seed just knock some out at harvest, non of this 100 grand drill crap to argue about.

I hear what you're saying... thing is if you don't dig all the spuds you still have spuds, all plants reproduce themself somehow.

I'm sure there'd be loads of problems with perennial cereals, if not they'd buy some

 

[Simon Chiles]

We had 3 different brands of DD in the past demo here. None established better than the tillage method.
What I read about DD, even from leaders in the field, is that you got to expect a yield drop at first.
On marginal land can not really afford the yield loss for a few years.

But still think if you plough plenty of stuff back in, soil biology still improves. When I went organic, chopped and ploughed everything and soil did improve and worm numbers increased. (Old man used to bale and sell all straw off to the cattle men)

But sadly at Moment I am now doing the same, as bps going and can not get in sfi as got stuff in Cs. So bale all straw and goes to power stations to help make up the difference. Gov dont want us to grow food now, so what does soil quality really matter..?

It doesn’t surprise me that you had poor establishments from direct drill demo’s and I’d totally agree with you that it’s perfectly possible to increase your soil biology by ploughing plenty of stuff back in, especially manure.
However I would dispute that switching to direct drilling was necessarily going to cause a loss in yield, it didn’t for me.