Will's Interesting Links Page

[SilliamWhale]

When pH is everything and carbonate makes pH, so why add Ca or Mg with carbonate and not some others or pure co3 instead?

First page is what certain mr. Albrecht agrees. Fertile soil's making earthworms!

Is there such a thing as pure c03? Or is just that the agricultural lime is the most economic form of it? Does slag have carbonite in it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate_rock seems to come only in calcite or dolomite form.

 

[Feldspar]

Is there such a thing as pure c03? Or is just that the agricultural lime is the most economic form of it? Does slag have carbonite in it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate_rock seems to come only in calcite or dolomite form.

You cannot just apply CO3 in solid form, it needs to be as part of a compound with something like Mg or Ca. Could be with a whole range of anions but the last two are the most common in agriculture.

 

[SilliamWhale]

You cannot just apply CO3 in solid form, it needs to be as part of a compound with something like Mg or Ca. Could be with a whole range of anions but the last two are the most common in agriculture.

Thankyou. I wish I did better at science sometimes.

 

[tafka]

Cations

 

[Feldspar]

Cations

You're right. Always get those the wrong way round!

 

[SilliamWhale]

not really no till and totally the wrong time of year for farmers but it will have some interesting speakers (and maybe some cranks!)

http://london.savoryinstitute.org/

 

[martian]

They have cut the entry price for farmers apparently. Should be an interesting event, but, as you say, it clashes with harvest a bit...

 

[martian]

Interesting stuff from ECAF about a project in Southern Spain to measure the effect of No-till farming on carbon sequestration, soil resilience, yield etc. Four year study showed farmers make more money with less work and carbon is locked up. Government now promoting technique across the country, EU funded project and they will be thinking about rolling it out across Europe. Or will they?

 

[dontknowanything]

Interesting stuff from ECAF about a project in Southern Spain to measure the effect of No-till farming on carbon sequestration, soil resilience, yield etc. Four year study showed farmers make more money with less work and carbon is locked up. Government now promoting technique across the country, EU funded project and they will be thinking about rolling it out across Europe. Or will they?

No till makes sense in arid climates, that is almost undeniable.

However, we do not live in an arid climate. Moisture is the limiting factor on our farm, as it is on @Clive 's. But we are very spoilt in a global context, and when we get yield reductions from lack of water then we are probably looking at 15-20% in a very dry year, and maybe 15-20% higher yields in a good year. Compare this to drier (and equally important, hotter) parts of the US, where they will lose 50-100% of their yield in what they consider to be a drought. I suspect the same is true in southern Spain.

Therefore moisture conservation techniques, such as no-till, make a proportionately smaller difference in the UK than they do in other places. Using data from southern Spain, USA or Australia to justify no-till in the UK is not a terribly clever thing to do in my opinion; it is a form of cherry picking to suit an agenda.

Now, how many people have I upset?

 

[BSH]

No Til as a moisture conservation tool in the UK maybe less important than other more arid areas of the EU, but why is the carbon sequestration and reduced hours in establishment not relevant? The increased margins because of higher yields because of better water management maybe specific, but increased SOM has benefits across climate zones, or is that not what you have discovered on your travels?

 

[Baling Hay]

No till makes sense in arid climates, that is almost undeniable.

However, we do not live in an arid climate. Moisture is the limiting factor on our farm, as it is on @Clive 's. But we are very spoilt in a global context, and when we get yield reductions from lack of water then we are probably looking at 15-20% in a very dry year, and maybe 15-20% higher yields in a good year. Compare this to drier (and equally important, hotter) parts of the US, where they will lose 50-100% of their yield in what they consider to be a drought. I suspect the same is true in southern Spain.

Therefore moisture conservation techniques, such as no-till, make a proportionately smaller difference in the UK than they do in other places. Using data from southern Spain, USA or Australia to justify no-till in the UK is not a terribly clever thing to do in my opinion; it is a form of cherry picking to suit an agenda.

Now, how many people have I upset?

Good to hear a no-tiller talking about how it is rather than bigging it up as the best thing since sliced bread!

 

[dontknowanything]

No Til as a moisture conservation tool in the UK maybe less important than other more arid areas of the EU, but why is the carbon sequestration and reduced hours in establishment not relevant? The increased margins because of higher yields because of better water management maybe specific, but increased SOM has benefits across climate zones, or is that not what you have discovered on your travels?

Not all trials show increased, or any, carbon sequestration through no no-till. I keep on referring to this, but FAR results from NZ show no difference in SOM levels between no-till and ploughing over 13 years. The same trial does show yield advantage to no-till however.

My point is, only taking the results from trials you agree with, and pretending the others don't exist, is not a sensible way to make decisions on how to run your business.

 

[BSH]

True, there is no point cherry picking data to support a pre conception. How have you found the split of the data? Are the examples where there is no increase in soil OM a minority or an equal split? By the way, I am really interested to know what a typical cropping programme is for Gabe Brown. Did you find out when you were there? I understand that he says he doesn't have a fixed rotation, but how many cash crops does he take in a 5 year period? I have the impression that it is not that many and green manuring is the key to his soil improvement, using cattle to get some income from the green manures, but would love to know.

 

[dontknowanything]

True, there is no point cherry picking data to support a pre conception. How have you found the split of the data? Are the examples where there is no increase in soil OM a minority or an equal split? By the way, I am really interested to know what a typical cropping programme is for Gabe Brown. Did you find out when you were there? I understand that he says he doesn't have a fixed rotation, but how many cash crops does he take in a 5 year period? I have the impression that it is not that many and green manuring is the key to his soil improvement, using cattle to get some income from the green manures, but would love to know.

I have not performed a proper analysis of the research so could not say what the split is on various topics. I do not know what, if any, is the prevailing view.

Interesting you ask about Gabe Brown, I am literally writing my blog post about him now. I do not have many details on his operation as I was one of about 60 people visiting so did not get to spend much 1-1 time asking questions of my own choosing.

I suspect you are correct with your impression - I did try and ask that, but did not get a straight answer.

 

[BSH]

I have not performed a proper analysis of the research so could not say what the split is on various topics. I do not know what, if any, is the prevailing view.

Interesting you ask about Gabe Brown, I am literally writing my blog post about him now. I do not have many details on his operation as I was one of about 60 people visiting so did not get to spend much 1-1 time asking questions of my own choosing.

I suspect you are correct with your impression - I did try and ask that, but did not get a straight answer.

I don't know how to do a quote of just a line, but your last sentence seems to be a common response in that it is difficult to get a straight answer on the subject and that makes me a little suspicious. Not suspicious of the results, I'm sure he has achieved great things with his soil, but so could the rest of us if we just green manured endlessly and then made our money giving lectures on how good we were at looking after the soil!
I don't know if you have read either of the Zimmerman books? He has turned around soils by not growing a cash crop for two plus years
and green manuring, but he has done it by not paying any rent for the land whilst he converts it. Not really a model that can be applied everywhere!

 

[dontknowanything]

I don't know how to do a quote of just a line, but your last sentence seems to be a common response in that it is difficult to get a straight answer on the subject and that makes me a little suspicious. Not suspicious of the results, I'm sure he has achieved great things with his soil, but so could the rest of us if we just green manured endlessly and then made our money giving lectures on how good we were at looking after the soil!
I don't know if you have read either of the Zimmerman books? He has turned around soils by not growing a cash crop for two plus years
and green manuring, but he has done it by not paying any rent for the land whilst he converts it. Not really a model that can be applied everywhere!

I'd imagine you will be going to bed soon, but in the morning you can read my thoughts on it. I have just finished writing that section.

Haven't read those books, don't seem to have enough time in my life at the moment for reading!

 

[BSH]

Look forward to reading your views. (Am enjoying your blog!) The second Zimmerman book is called Advancing Biological farming and is worth having on your bookshelf FWIW.

 

[Feldspar]

No till makes sense in arid climates, that is almost undeniable.

However, we do not live in an arid climate. Moisture is the limiting factor on our farm, as it is on @Clive 's. But we are very spoilt in a global context, and when we get yield reductions from lack of water then we are probably looking at 15-20% in a very dry year, and maybe 15-20% higher yields in a good year. Compare this to drier (and equally important, hotter) parts of the US, where they will lose 50-100% of their yield in what they consider to be a drought. I suspect the same is true in southern Spain.

Therefore moisture conservation techniques, such as no-till, make a proportionately smaller difference in the UK than they do in other places. Using data from southern Spain, USA or Australia to justify no-till in the UK is not a terribly clever thing to do in my opinion; it is a form of cherry picking to suit an agenda.

Now, how many people have I upset?

TAG data shows that more yield is lost from excess rainfall periods than is lost from drought periods in the UK. Particularly if you are on heavy clay you should be more concerned about getting rid of excess water in the wet times than holding onto it in the dry times. Fortunately increased SOM should do both of those things at once.

 

[dontknowanything]

TAG data shows that more yield is lost from excess rainfall periods than is lost from drought periods in the UK. Particularly if you are on heavy clay you should be more concerned about getting rid of excess water in the wet times than holding onto it in the dry times. Fortunately increased SOM should do both of those things at once.

Indeed. I know you wouldn't, but don't expect that to happen from using no-till. CTF has been shown to significantly increase infiltration rates, so perhaps a better option for people wanting a single solution to the problem, rather than a total system change.

It also involves buying new stuff, so may be more palatable to a lot of farmers!

 

[Feldspar]

I have not performed a proper analysis of the research so could not say what the split is on various topics. I do not know what, if any, is the prevailing view.

Interesting you ask about Gabe Brown, I am literally writing my blog post about him now. I do not have many details on his operation as I was one of about 60 people visiting so did not get to spend much 1-1 time asking questions of my own choosing.

I suspect you are correct with your impression - I did try and ask that, but did not get a straight answer.

I think there is also an interesting question which concerns the distribution of soil organic matter in the soil profile. It seems fairly clear cut that ploughing gives great SOM concentrations at depth where as no-till has much higher SOM concentrations in the top 5 cms. It might be that you can get better yields not from higher overall SOM levels, but rather from a more optimal distribution throughout the profile.

No-till plus a cover crop can give higher water infiltration rates (read this in the last day or so) than ploughed ground.

I think it is possible though to have higher infiltration rates than ploughing and still have higher water content in the top few cms (where a newly sown seed might lie). Need to think about this.