Yet another student research project - are you planning on shifting towards producing less meat or dairy?

[Jackov Altraids]

I think meat is a superfood the qualities of which I think we are underestimating at our peril.

It would be interesting to know the carbon footprint of the essential oils/ vitamins replacements that naturally occur in meat.

I wonder how long it will take for health implications of some of these meat alternatives to appear. We have so little understanding of how modern processed foods interact with our bodies but they are probably closely related to the increase in diabetes, auto-immune disorders, obesity, mental health problems, etc

 

[SilliamWhale]

It would be interesting to know the carbon footprint of the essential oils/ vitamins replacements that naturally occur in meat.

I wonder how long it will take for health implications of some of these meat alternatives to appear. We have so little understanding of how modern processed foods interact with our bodies but they are probably closely related to the increase in diabetes, auto-immune disorders, obesity, mental health problems, etc

This guy is not everyones cup of tea because he's strident on the excesses of covid rules etc so some claim hes a crank. But he's written a really good book about how important meat is and the excess of bready stuff and grains is not good

 

[kfpben]

As someone farming near Winchester you are welcome to come round the farm and I will show you how and why I am producing more meat and livestock.

Please don’t rear up at people who disagree with you though, it’s not a good look. We don’t have to help you out with your dissertation you know.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I'm afraid this thread has got off to rather a rocky start but essentially, @Mathilde made the reasonable assumption the recommendations were correct and was very good to ask us farmers the pertinent question;

"What my project asks is, how can English policy offer to farmers who want to reduce their volume of production of animal products a just transition amidst all these challenges and changes?"

While we all hope these recommendations will change when people become more enlightened to the truth it would be sensible to consider the consequences should there misguided recommendations get enacted.


I guess most of us were expecting/ hoping that ELMS was going to be the answer but in it's current form I would expect it to have the opposite effect.
The only policy I can imagine working to reduce livestock numbers would be a generous area payment based on a low average stocking rate.

 

[Mathilde]

My only observation would be that by concentrating on England it over looks the fact that other three home nations land by and large is only good for grazing, there is no option to be a mixed farm.

P.s you can’t Rev up at reply’s you don’t like,you need farmer’s opinions more than they need to give them

Thanks Wilksy, that's all really helpful. I agree that it's silly to get angry at people who don't agree with you, I just draw the line at insinuations that I'm an idiot, a puppet, whatever demeaning terms were used to designate women back when men got away with objectifying back in the 70s ("petal", really?), that kind of thing. It's not people disagreeing with what they think is my view that bugs me, and I didn't waste time going into a discussion on the scientific merits of Topground's stance or what he views as my own stance to someone who was obviously not interested in hearing them. We can each think what we think, but when people are rude, I don't think it's unfair to point it out to them.
I am interested in people's genuine constructive opinions, not trolling. I doubt that would put off anyone thoughtful enough to be genuinely interested in providing actual insights on the topic.
But thanks, everything you said is perfectly reasonable! Have a nice evening.

Abusive reply?

Then you go on and insinuate that the member called you a nazi…….

I read one of the speils from one of these “food chain disrupters” and they seem to revel in causing rural and associated food chain job losses. Farming is by far and large individual businesses, the industry supports an intricate web of ancillary trades, businesses. The aim for the countryside is the removal of animals and ultimately reversion of land to wilding in order to cut emissions, whilst at the same time building factories and laboratories in which to create artificial versions of stuff that happens naturally.

It seems like total folly, systematically dismantle our food supply chain then hand that responsibility over to a handful of multinational processors and pharmaceutical businesses to fill the gap. How’s that gonna end?

The anti-meat agenda is peppered with dodgy stats, selective presentations and outright lies. What’s the next step? It’ll be outdoor veg, grown in that bacteria and fungi laden soil, better off produced in a sterile lab. Then we all become allergic to everything and deficient in things we didn’t think to include in the prescription meals. Spring water? Eurrgh, turns out that comes out of the ground ………

Have you seen the film idiocracy?

At least they weren’t as stupid as to get rid of the cattle!

Hi Melted Welly,

No, you're right, Topground was actually complimenting a nazi, not calling me one. I thought the former was worse so I rolled it into the elements that were pointed at me in his remarks instead, because that seemed a bit more graceful. Why anyone would want to agree with a Nazi general and be sided with by his peers is beyond me but you're right, he was siding with a genocidal maniac, not calling me one. I'm just not sure that's better. Sigh. But yes, I thought that was abusive, as it implied I had some kind of sinister interest or funding pushing me to create unscientific narratives, and suggested (well, clearly stated) that people with, well, a different PhD in nutrition from Topground were idiots and all got sick. If you think that's a nice way to talk to people then I'm not sure how to explain to you why I take issue with it :|

I'm really glad you took the time to comment though because although we may not agree on what is or isn't appropriate to say to strangers asking for stakeholder expertise for an educational exercise, you make very good points - there are stretched/dodgy stats on both sides of the meat/anti-meat divide, and frankly I think that's just par for the course with ideologies or vested interests, which is why although I'm not particularly a fan of meat, I don't want to be biased, as much as it's possible not to be, and have made a point of reading people like Simon Fairlie and James Rebanks. I think it's important to acknowledge that this whole debate is a very long, meandering continuum, not just 2 poles with a great no man's land in the middle. And frankly I think we would all be better off if we could have conversations where we meet each other halfway!
I like my food coming from the soil, like you. And in fact I think quite a few people that aren't into meat do too. I think there are technophiles and hippies on both sides of the divide.

And no, I haven't seen Idiocracy, but I've heard good things, and I'll make a note of watching it with a self-critical eye sometime

 

[Mathilde]

Which part of Topgrounds post did you find abusive? I've read it three times now and failed to find the abusive part

Hi there, I've explained it a couple of times now, and I don't think there's any point in reiterating what I think are rather glaring issues if they don't trigger a response for you—that's fine if that's the case, as I've been saying this whole time, we don't have to agree on whether something constitutes a problem or not. I don't think anyone would like to hear something along the lines of 'who is paying you to spread lies'? out of the blue, though. I'd think that would be enough of a faux pas in most people's books!

 

[steveR]

Mad dash into Tesco the other night , grabbed bread . milk and as I`d missed lunch a pack of mini pork pies to munch on the way home , one bite told me something was wrong, `kin disgusting so I then read the packet "Plant based pie" never again .

 

[Mathilde]

That paragraph would not be accepted by your lecturers as you are trying to sway opinion , a scientific study should be just that , it sounds like you've already decided your findings before you've done any research or written your dissertation, it`s a 29% / fail from me.

Hi there Lincoln, thanks, you may be feeling critical but at least that's a constructive statement! Ha, if only I could summarise all my findings in a short paragraph. My study does not aim to assess the merits of the meat/no meat stances, I keep having to explain that on this thread, I don't quite know why. What is true is that numerous reports, white papers etc. that have already influenced UK policy, and/or are likely to do so, recommend reductions in animal product consumption. And if that gets translated into policy, especially if this is compounded by a quick rise in the viability and market share of animal product alternatives, then that's going to cause a disruption to the supply and demand dynamics of the food system. I don't think that deduction is a wild leap in reason, really! It's common practice, when you introduce your subject of enquiry, to give a sense of the context. I could be saying "people have been arguing about the rights robots should have", and that wouldn't mean I think either side would be right, nor even that robots would need to exist for such a debate to take place. I hope that makes more sense to you and if not I'm sorry you don't approve of where I identify risks of change to the food system. If you were just genuinely warning me not to fall for what every famous report says and to do my research, thanks, that's fair enough, and I can assure you I've been doing my research, all the way from how redox potential affects soil health to trade deals, Healthy Start vouchers, and the types of plants pigs like to forage on.

 

[Muddyroads]

Hi @Mathilde. I run an organic farm producing beef, lamb and vegetables. I note that you’re in Devon and would be quite happy to show you around and explain why we do what we do. We run a fully integrated system where livestock are essential to the farm and the wider environment. I’m sure you’re sufficiently open minded to make the most of such an invitation.

 

[Mathilde]

Hi Mathilde,
Firstly, I take issue with your response to Topground. It doesn't seem to be edited in anyway and I simply do not believe you have interpreted a good reply in a reasonable way.

The basic message I think you'll get from farmers is that we actually understand nature and the environment better than many of the people writing the recommendations that you mentioned which are generally orchestrated and financed by corporation's that wish to supply an alternative.

Livestock are a self-regenerating source of food, clothing, insulation and thousands of other products which are often oil-based alternatives and the inputs can be sustainable, namely grass and water.

I'm sure most of us would consider it a dereliction of our duty and responsibility to the environment, to drastically reduce livestock numbers.

Hi Jackov, ah, how refreshing that you're willing to engage with me on the actual subject, honestly, it's far nicer than being called condescended for being a bit upset by nazi sympathising. What's offensive is pretty subjective, but even without going into "people with a different ideology than mine are misguided and can't even tell a respiratory infection from poor diet (and yes, some vegan diets, like some animal-based diets, are really unhealthy!)", again, the assumption that I am a puppet to some evil funder or just completely misguided just because I am suggesting an evolution in policy and market forces seems to be afoot is really uncalled for. I may not eat meat, but I'm not calling any meat-eater an idiot for eating meat; I'm sure everyone has their own paradigm that seems ethically and logically sound to them, and in our complex reality, that's the best we can hope for, period.

Anyway, you get at something really important, which is something I have also identified, even as a layperson, and am concerned about - farmers don't seem to have much of a voice or a say in things, and I think that's a shame. If you re-read my original post (which you may notice was not asking for keyboard ping pong on a forum thread but expert contributions, by the way) you might see that. I'm not saying you didn't pay attention the first time, but I get the sense from the posts I've read here so far that there seems to be a very uniform notion of "us vs them" as soon as the word "meat" is uttered or typed, and more specifically what "them" looks like. But I suspect you know better, just like I know people eat and farm animals for all sorts of different reasons, and I wouldn't make assumptions as to why each person does what they do, what their logical or ethical ontology looks like, and so on.

So apart from the fact that you don't find Topground's response abrasive and I do, please know, for what it's worth, that I actually agree with everything else you said there. I would much prefer to see low densities of pigs thriving on food waste and foraging through the woods than maize monocrops as far as the eye can see. But again, there are advocates for damaging tech-based solutions on both sides of the problem, and if we talked more, we might find that we have more fundamental things in common than the thing we may disagree on, i.e. how we use animals in most agricultural production these days. And yes, I suspect farmers have a much more holistic sense of their own craft than how ag scientists can convey in 10,000 word articles aimed solely at their own peers, even if they have the best intentions in their research. It's just a shame it seems to be difficult to have a conversation.

Anyway, thanks again for your polite and thoughtful input!

 

[Mathilde]

I think her Vegan or Veggie diet may be clouding her brain function.
Looks awfully like a wind up artist to me as I thought Topground was very moderate and importantly accurate!

Hi Frank, I'm sorry if I didn't come across as reasonable to you, and I for one do not suspect your own dietary choices are leading you to fail to understand what I was saying just because you presume I don't eat meat and I presume you do. I'm sorry if you didn't think I was being very articulate, or if you decided to conclude, because I didn't agree with someone you sided with who started quoting Goebbels at me in approval, that I was "a wind up artist". No, I'm just a student and well-meaning individual looking at our food system and thinking it's not looking in great shape, either for nature or for farmers. How you can think that someone has time to waste to wind people up on a random forum is beyond me, but maybe people do that on forums, in which case I'm glad it took a research project with a looming deadline for me to post on a forum.
However, I do not have a degree in advanced nutrition, and I assume you do not either, nor Topground, so I think commenting on what is and isn't right with regards to other's personal decisions and conclusions with regards to something as complex as human physiology is clearly uncalled for (and yes, I am referring (among other passages) to the statement about Lewis Hamilton, which, beyond saying it is disingenuous to speculate on the reasons for his health problems, I am not interested in, frankly - I haven't got time to keep up with gossip about people in the spotlight or see how their misfortune can bolster my snide remarks at strangers who are different from me in some way).

 

[topground]

@Mathilde Your response to my original post suggests to me that you are determined to be offended. This is evidenced by your poor understanding of my reference to Goebbels in demonstrating how propaganda influences the population at large. I have made no reference to ‘people of colour’ Hamilton has a black father and a white mother, how he identifies is irrelevant to his poor diet. It is also a fact that young women are more likely to adopt fad diets and to suffer health problems as a result.
I have concluded that your dissertation will be a reflection of your views rather than an objective analysis of any contribution from members of this forum and as a consequence I suspect few will bother to respond.
Good luck anyway, you probably have a bright future as a graduate working for the BBC or as a DEFRA policy maker.

 

[Mathilde]

Wonder if it would be appropriate to forward the thread to the University ?

Hey there, if you feel you should, then please do, that's fair enough. I'd hope that a university I specifically chose to attend because it holds progressive values would not be too shocked that I would be a bit offended by nazi apologism when all I asked for was expert insights from a subset of a professional group that the person in question did not belong to, i.e. people looking at these trends and thinking of updating their business strategy, insights which they had no interest in providing. But to be fair I think in that case you should also report the thread to the moderator, as if this whole unpleasant conversation is distasteful to my university, then surely it has no place on a civilised forum either. I didn't do that when Topground decided to come asking me who was funding me, however crass that and the other statements they made were, because I thought me finding it unseemly and fit for the 18th century didn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to air their views because I didn't agree. I'm just a guest on this forum. That said I don't think my request was rude or unreasonable, nor did the moderation team. Anyway, all the best.

 

[JP1]

You deserve a fair reply but please understand there's a lot of angst in the farming industry right now and particularly the livestock sector

You see context, others battered by a bombardment of misinformation over recent years sees you pose a position that , in my simple mind, equates to some one phrasing a question "How long have you been beating your wife"

Much of the media hype parroted on the BBC and seemingly reverberating around Number 10 and DEFRA policy wonks confuses global meat production with mainly pastoral and mixed beef and sheep farming over here. The data on CO2, water, food miles you name it is really skewed

It is legitimate for us to ask who's loading the gun: vegan pressure groups, re-wilders, global food corporations, global meat alternative corporates etc.

I find it utterly utterly depressing that a few ivory tower academics get to be cited and feited



Folks need to eat a mixed diet . Folks need to respect the value of food, Bottled water being worth much more than milk is a prime example

The World needs more pastoral farming to stop desertification and you need grazing animals to stop the brush and grass getting dry as it ages and becoming a fire risk

I don't understand why beef and lamb is regarded as the meats that need to be cut down compared with poultry and pork, Why?

Sadly at the age of 59 I just see a media reporting a World I no longer recognise. Tonight reports about the riots 10 years ago. I'd be outraged about the death of anyone including Mark Duggan but nobody should be excusing the flagrant looting . I'd never do it

A re-balance across the globe may be required but at the end of the day the World has finite resources and massive, massive population explosion

Back home and as a small scale extensive cattle keeper on conservation grazing, I am facing ever more closures of local abattoirs, a supermarket sector that wants to "out spec" my native cattle for their little polystyrene tray meat, even a cattle (UK feedlot) association that has the temerity to want to impose a further penalty on me for rearing finished beef cattle beyond 28 months for my slow food native cattle that only graze ground where nothing else would grow and over wintered on haylage only.

So in theory my cattle system should be the most attractive to the consumer but bogus methane and CO2 claims actually try to portray animals forced to finish on cereal based diets as being the way forward . I struggle with this

Having responded to two DEFRA "consultations" in the past year on behalf of me and as a qualified specialist on behalf of trade associations, I tire massively that pre-determined policy statements in qualifying opening statements in their consultations appear to have the outcomes decided and also alarm good, honest hard working UK farmers and manufacturers. This is further compounded when said DEFRA big Brother style online communications go silent after response deadlines and no hint of what the next steps are

I would be happy to answer specific questions and you can PM me

 

[Mathilde]

I see the CEO of plant-based meat company Beyond Meat claiming their burgers use 99% less water and 93% less land than beef and livestock farming creates 14% of global emissions.
All reported on BBC and all completely wrong for the UK but the public just soak up these figures.

Hey there, yes, well, I tend to be wary of figures claimed by big business and aired by the media too, to be fair, so I understand your frustration. I haven't found any paper I found 100% reliable on "the truth" about GHG emissions, land and water use of different products in different environments and models etc, so while it seems to me to be likely (purely doing the math) that livestock farming has a non-insignificantly higher footprint than cell-based models might, I do not make any claims as to the truth of the matter, if it's any consolation to you. In fact I try not to watch the BBC or TV in general as I prefer not to think I know about a particular topic when I'm likely just getting distorted soundbites of the facts...
It's just a bit of a recipe for disaster when you mix very complex interdisciplinary science with ideologies and commercial, cultural and political interests (in a disjointed public governance system to boot). And in case that isn't clear, that's not a criticism at "meat advocates", it's just human nature doing its thing across the entire ideological spectrum, in my view.

 

[Mathilde]

I think meat is a superfood the qualities of which I think we are underestimating at our peril.

That's a fair point, again, I'm no Harvard-trained nutritionist so I can't dispute that! I think whether our diets contain meat or not, they're far removed from what we've evolved to thrive on, these days. I also think we seem to have evolved to be able to thrive with or without meat as long as our diet is made up of nutritious foods. People often rightly say, well, if you eat only plants, you'll have to add vitamin B12 to your intake, and that's true, but apparently in a lot of the cheap meat most people buy, that's often supplemented into the product, because industrial production models mean animal tissue doesn't contain B12 in the same way your medieval pigs foraging about in the commons might have so I think - moral of the story, our whole system is problematic.

 

[Muddyroads]

Is my invitation not of interest to you?

 

[Mathilde]

I'd never touch a plant based burger unless it was a genuinely home made one. Why would you want that processed crap? This is a beyond meat burger ingredients: water, pea protein, expeller-pressed canola oil, refined coconut oil, rice protein, natural flavors, cocoa butter, mung bean protein, methylcellulose, potato starch, apple extract, pomegranate extract, salt, potassium chloride, vinegar, lemon juice concentrate, sunflower lecithin, beet juice extract - I'd genuinely rather have a lamb chop, sirloin steak or piece of roast pork.

And I'd rather have a nice homemade lentil stew but hey, a lot of people love their junk food. What can you do. I find it amazing we're not properly taught about cooking and nutrition at school (at least we didn't when I went to school!).

 

[Mathilde]

Mad dash into Tesco the other night , grabbed bread . milk and as I`d missed lunch a pack of mini pork pies to munch on the way home , one bite told me something was wrong, `kin disgusting so I then read the packet "Plant based pie" never again .

Haha that's the perils of buying super processed foods without looking closely at what we're eating, as we all do sometimes! And as someone on a plant-based diet, I have to agree, there have been times when I've tried plant-based versions of animal-based products and wondered if a meat company had decided to bully us herbivores with such awful products! Haha.... There are nice plant-based convenience foods out there. But they definitely would taste weird if you're used to eating the animal-based versions, a lot of the time!

 

[topground]

People often rightly say, well, if you eat only plants, you'll have to add vitamin B12 to your intake, and that's true, but apparently in a lot of the cheap meat most people buy, that's often supplemented into the product, because industrial production models mean animal tissue doesn't contain B12 in the same way your medieval pigs foraging about in the commons might have.

@Mathilde Any evidence to support this story about B12 being added to meat or is this yet more vegan propaganda lies which, if repeated often enough become fact, (See Goebbels reference above)