Limousin

CharcoalWally · Jul 15, 2013

Walter Price said:
It's down to money: suckler beef production is carried on at the margins of what's economically possible, often on marginal ground, so that every possible advantage or 'edge' is needed to stay in business. The three main advantages are hybrid vigour (which explains why the UK beef herd is so variegated) and conformation (hence the dominance of the Limousin) and ease of calving (ditto).

The focus is, therefore, on the number of good quality live calves per 100 cows - what their temperament is like is secondary, in the economic sense.

Attempts in the UK to breed composite cows, using Limousins (or whatever) only as terminal sires, have largely failed - from Stabilisers (ask Mr Evans, who's got an open day on 17th July) to black baldies (ask Mr John Douglas from Stranraer, whose on-farm auctions are annual fixtures) and lots of other candidates, they have all failed to replace the wildly-efficient Limousin.

Maybe it's time to stop throwing rocks at Limousins, and start pushing BLCS's approach to breeding out wild genetics instead?

So an animals temperament counts for little economically?Dunno what things are like down in Wales, but in Scotland,lots of people have added value to their beef system by ditching nutheads like the Limousin,and bringing on a Simmental.Quieter bullocks for fattening systems too,but foremost its the quiet,milky female which is now in massive demand.Gradually,we,re moving away from Lim. cows,and their temperament is an obvious issue.Look at Spring breeding sales North of the Border.Simm. bulling heifers on offer outnumber Lims,and often outsell them too.So its strictly market driven,the consumer{fermers!},has got fed up running and is,nt getting any younger!So,simple really,quieter cattle help make money.Don't take my word for it,ask anyone whose buying them.They,ll tell the same story.PS.You cant throw a rock at a Lim.By the time said rock has completed its airborne trajectory,said Lim is a mile away.Complete waste of time!

Baling Hay · Jul 15, 2013

CharcoalWally said:
So an animals temperament counts for little economically?Dunno what things are like down in Wales, but in Scotland,lots of people have added value to their beef system by ditching nutheads like the Limousin,and bringing on a Simmental.Quieter bullocks for fattening systems too,but foremost its the quiet,milky female which is now in massive demand.Gradually,we,re moving away from Lim. cows,and their temperament is an obvious issue.Look at Spring breeding sales North of the Border.Simm. bulling heifers on offer outnumber Lims,and often outsell them too.So its strictly market driven,the consumer{fermers!},has got fed up running and is,nt getting any younger!So,simple really,quieter cattle help make money.Don't take my word for it,ask anyone whose buying them.They,ll tell the same story.PS.You cant throw a rock at a Lim.By the time said rock has completed its airborne trajectory,said Lim is a mile away.Complete waste of time!

Are people going pure Sim?

Walterp · Jul 15, 2013

Steakeater said:
Are people going pure Sim?

Not unless they've got plenty of time to pick up the calves, tube 'em and teach them to suck...

GenuineRisk · Jul 15, 2013

It's a matter of responsibility to ensure that your cattle handling system is safe not only regards your own safety but for any animal health professionals you need to call in each year - WalterP is correct in pointing out it should be a necessity, not an option.

Funnily enough, @Penmoel, one of our quietest cows is a Limousinx and I was very grateful to her this morning, as she's one of our oldest now. She'll come to call and is a dominant cow, so rest will follow her happily and her bunch came in with no hassles at all, from furthest away. She'll shoot a pedigree Blue embryo out the back no hassles, had a good cross bred Blue calf to freshen her back up and is again carrying an embryo for us - pure black, you can see your face in her coat at the moment, it's so shiny! At one time, we were using three different ped Lim bulls over the dairy herd and temperament varied considerably - one bull's progeny were always really quiet and you could pick his out but two other bulls produced typical wild feckers and they didn't stay too long! I l love the look of a Lim and agree they can do an amazing job under the right conditions, with stockmen who are comfortable working with them - not against them. We're about to breed our three 2yo ped Lims next week to ped Lim, a course of action that makes me question our sanity but I am also quite excited to see what we can produce. They'll go Blue thereafter, though!

DB67 · Jul 15, 2013

In my experience limmy x cows settle right down as they get older. Calves are often more temperamental in crushes etc, but they soon calm down.

Simmys can be just as fiery.

Bill the Bass · Jul 15, 2013

Steakeater said:
I will disagree with this, the simmental x shorthorn will be about the same size as a lim but produce more milk and therefore wean more kgs per acre than the pure lim.

What are you going to bull them with? They will be a sound cow no doubt - perhaps ideal for some, but you tell me where I buy them from? TB free and every other health issue free? Oh and unless you bull them with a hard muscled Blue, Lim or CH the calves aren't going to be shapey enough for a suckled calf sales or the butchers market round here, but that could be changing.....

Also you have no chance of having a closed herd unless you have about 2-300 cow spaces to fill and there aint many of them size units in Cumbria - I would suggest that is one of the reasons why Limousins dominate in this particular area, it is really the only breed that can do either job (maternal or terminal) with exception of the Simmental.

M-J-G · Jul 15, 2013

Bill the Bass said:
I agree with you Martin, however one thing where the Sim falls down with us is the size of the cow. They are just too big, we can't stock them as hard in the yards or at grass due to the bigger frame of the Sim. We are in the county of the £17000/acre land price, rents heading to £300 (if you can find the land) and 6 month grass lets at £150- 200 without SFP, which I suppose begs the question 'should I not just sell all the cows and bank a rent cheque?' but that is a different thread.

In terms of Kg's weaned per cow exposed to the bull (this takes in fertility, milking and maternal ability and calf growth) I don't think you can beat a Limousin - I am sure you will disagree!

Hi Bill, I can't disagree with what to do on your farm, it's a case of every man to his own!!! Smaller Simmentals won't be much,. if any bigger than an average sized Lim.

I know of plenty of Simmental breeding that I won't use because breeders are making them too small and shapely in order to breed a red and white Lim.

We are of the opinion here that with a lowland suckler's calf needs to hit the ground running as far as growth is concerned and it needs milk to fuel that growth. I refuse to creep feed to single calves.
Although we have no grass at the moment due to a partial drought, and I may be forced to buffer feed straw to cows soon and may have to creep calves then.

M-J-G · Jul 15, 2013

Bill the Bass said:
What are you going to bull them with? They will be a sound cow no doubt - perhaps ideal for some, but you tell me where I buy them from? TB free and every other health issue free? Oh and unless you bull them with a hard muscled Blue, Lim or CH the calves aren't going to be shapey enough for a suckled calf sales or the butchers market round here, but that could be changing.....

Also you have no chance of having a closed herd unless you have about 2-300 cow spaces to fill and there aint many of them size units in Cumbria - I would suggest that is one of the reasons why Limousins dominate in this particular area, it is really the only breed that can do either job (maternal or terminal) with exception of the Simmental.

I sell them Bill, Johnes and BVD accredited for 12 years and TB4.

Baling Hay · Jul 15, 2013

martin gribbon said:
Hi Bill, I can't disagree with what to do on your farm, it's a case of every man to his own!!! Smaller Simmentals won't be much,. if any bigger than an average sized Lim.

I know of plenty of Simmental breeding that I won't use because breeders are making them too small and shapely in order to breed a red and white Lim.

We are of the opinion here that with a lowland suckler's calf needs to hit the ground running as far as growth is concerned and it needs milk to fuel that growth. I refuse to creep feed to single calves.
Although we have no grass at the moment due to a partial drought, and I may be forced to buffer feed straw to cows soon and may have to creep calves then.

I think you need to get with a camera Martin and get some photos of your stock up here! I know I would love to see them!

M-J-G · Jul 15, 2013

Walter Price said:
Not unless they've got plenty of time to pick up the calves, tube 'em and teach them to suck...

I have 30 pure Sims and 80 Sim X most of which have Sim calves and I don't suckle any big numbers of calves. Unless I'm going to milk the Dam for colostrum, most of which ironically goes to my neighbour who has Lim cows!!!

bobk · Jul 15, 2013

I've experienced most breeds of commercial cattle with a dairy herd and latterly beef production , so here's my top 10 if I chose to become a suckler farmer

1 Limousin
2 Limousin
2 Limousin
3 Limousin
4 Limousin
5 Limousin
6 Limousin
7 Limousin
8 Limousin
9 Limousin
10 Limousin

It surprises me that folk think lims are wild as I never had a problem on that score , certainly you need good fences as they do like to roam, the nastiest breed imo are blond Aquitaine , Simmental are quite sound but don't weigh , Charrolais are lovely cattle but they're cow killers , BB are just dozey bas####ds but always kill well, AA get too fat too quick , Herefords are a fabulous breed and will thrive when continentals will die but the grades take the edge off them.
So I suspect @Walter Price is on the right path but he knows that anyway

CharcoalWally · Jul 15, 2013

Steakeater said:
Are people going pure Sim?

Would,nt think so necessarily,Steakeater.A lot of mine go to the N-E of Scotland to go to Charolais bulls.Charolais X Simmental store bullocks/heifers are massively popular up there.I do know of some who are letting them go pure though,and it,ll be interesting to see if this continues.

CharcoalWally · Jul 15, 2013

Walter Price said:
Not unless they've got plenty of time to pick up the calves, tube 'em and teach them to suck...

Well,Martin G,s already dispensed with this ridiculous post,so all I,ll add is that I have exactly the same experience,including,bizarrely,a neighbour who has been known to scout around for colostrum for newly calved Lim/Blue cows!Weird coincidence or just Limousins?

simgirl · Jul 15, 2013

Walter Price said:
Not unless they've got plenty of time to pick up the calves, tube 'em and teach them to suck...

We calved 65 sim & simx this spring to sim & aa bulls, we had the vet twice (shmallenburgs) & helped 5 cows abit but all the calves were up & away without our help, even the twins. They're all on creep now but eating very little-plenty of grass & milk. We sell them mainly as 12mth stores & prices are on a par with limos or better & we have enjoyed & taken pride in our stock.

Bill the Bass · Jul 15, 2013

martin gribbon said:
I sell them Bill, Johnes and BVD accredited for 12 years and TB4.

And I am sure you find them easy to sell - there is definately changes happening in herds around here. It seems most people fall into two camps - some seem to be going for pure (or as near as possible) Limousins, I can quantify this to some extent as the purer or closer to pure limousin outfits we have sold this spring have been by far the best sellers and most in demand (£2k plus for Limousin, £1500 for Simmental x). The second camp being a big change with people going for things like Salers, Sims, Shorthorns etc.

It will be interesting to see where things are at in 5 or 10 years time, however I still cannot see the Limousin being much less dominant in Cumbria and the north west to be honest.

Bill the Bass · Jul 15, 2013

martin gribbon said:
Hi Bill, I can't disagree with what to do on your farm, it's a case of every man to his own!!! Smaller Simmentals won't be much,. if any bigger than an average sized Lim.

I know of plenty of Simmental breeding that I won't use because breeders are making them too small and shapely in order to breed a red and white Lim.

We are of the opinion here that with a lowland suckler's calf needs to hit the ground running as far as growth is concerned and it needs milk to fuel that growth. I refuse to creep feed to single calves.
Although we have no grass at the moment due to a partial drought, and I may be forced to buffer feed straw to cows soon and may have to creep calves then.

I have a good friend who keeps Sim's and he talked of these smaller muscley 'Irish' types - they would not interest me, as you say might as well have a red and white Lim.

We are of the opinon that fat cattle need to be hung up as quick as possible at as good a grade and trade as possible and that for us is bull beef and hence why we creep them, and why we favour the Limousin and Charolais. We can also do a good side line in breeding stock as well in all classes - a fair few of our bulls are bought out of the prime and store rings for breeding, heifers meet a ready trade to go on to bull and as mentioned Lim breeding outfits are just not beaten round here.

However if I had the acres and the shed space, a herd of Simmentals put to a Charolais would do me fine - who knows if strong stores stay a good trade and keep rising we may have to change.

CharcoalWally · Jul 15, 2013

Forgot to ask earlier Steakeater,what kind of cows you got?

Baling Hay · Jul 15, 2013

CharcoalWally said:
Forgot to ask earlier Steakeater,what kind of cows you got?

Don't keep sucklers anymore as we went into dairying. We used to keep AAx British friesian and limousin x british friesian. If I was to go into sucklers today it would definitely be a simmental x as can't get good friesian types anymore.

Cowgirl · Jul 15, 2013

Walter Price said:
It's down to money: suckler beef production is carried on at the margins of what's economically possible, often on marginal ground, so that every possible advantage or 'edge' is needed to stay in business. The three main advantages are hybrid vigour (which explains why the UK beef herd is so variegated) and conformation (hence the dominance of the Limousin) and ease of calving (ditto).

The focus is, therefore, on the number of good quality live calves per 100 cows - what their temperament is like is secondary, in the economic sense.

Attempts in the UK to breed composite cows, using Limousins (or whatever) only as terminal sires, have largely failed - from Stabilisers (ask Mr Evans, who's got an open day on 17th July) to black baldies (ask Mr John Douglas from Stranraer, whose on-farm auctions are annual fixtures) and lots of other candidates, they have all failed to replace the wildly-efficient Limousin.

Maybe it's time to stop throwing rocks at Limousins, and start pushing BLCS's approach to breeding out wild genetics instead?

As a relative newbie "girl learning", I'm finding it difficult to understand all this.
Hybrid vigour would occur with any crossbred animal - the only reason purebreds are kept is because hopefully the breeding results are more predictable.
There are certain words which for me need a definition, eg "quality" - what does this mean? Not temperament obviously. Meat quality / taste / tenderness? Not necessarily it seems. Good looking / show quality with a cute head for commercial classes? Profitability/ bottom line after all costs taken into account? Or the best price at the market?
"Conformation" - again what does this mean? Big double muscled hindquarters? Eye muscle area? - can't be because can't tell this without a scan. Surely what this means is "fashionable conformation". When I was a Young Farmer stock judging many years ago, these animals would have been regarded as very strange looking indeed - in fact farmers are perhaps no different from dog breeders in producing extreme conformation!
I don't think John Douglas or Robert Parker would admit that his Black Baldies are a failure.
Easy calving? There are lots of breeds that are very easy calving.
I think that everyone has to choose the best they can for their particular situation. My feeling is that our forefathers spent generations producing native breed cattle to suit our dreadful climate which could live much more profitably than Continental cattle on marginal grassland alone, if it were not for the fashion for cattle with huge back ends and an obsession with very lean meat, which isn't as healthy as we have been led to believe.
I also feel that lots of farmers are locked into a high input, high output system that they can't get out of.
But what would I know?

choochter · Jul 15, 2013

Cowgirl said:
But what would I know?

Well, you seem to know quite a lot. Why do you think you don't?

Limousin

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