EU shows its true colours

Old McDonald · Feb 8, 2019

stewart said:
Not bitter at all, why do you think that?

Your posts. They come across as being very bitter about the UK. Very similar to the expereinces I had in Australia. There were many who were disgruntled with what their lot had been in the UK and condemned it at every opportunity. You come across as having the same attitude.

I know you and I had direct posts to each other recently and some of that may have been smoothed out, but your posts do convey a sense of bitterness. Perhaps you do not realise it, but they do.

stewart · Feb 8, 2019

wanton dwarf said:
Profits can be made in land use, commerce, energy, vertical integration .. and there are synergies back to agriculture for all of those.

Recycling inputs .. so for example Public Compost, Bioenergy, Biosolids, Digestate, Wind energy, Solar Energy all of which are not directly linked to agriculture for profits but feed back into agriculture with inputs.

There are many others IMHO.

I doubt you can because you just don't have the population density.

For example .. some farms in my area make £10,000s if not £100,000s from Caravan storage.

Mmm I would not class Caravan storage as agricultural or even land based, If I wanted to take a living from such things I would just go and buy a caravan park or an industrial unit.

caveman · Feb 8, 2019

stewart said:
Mmm I would not class Caravan storage as agricultural or even land based, If I wanted to take a living from such things I would just go and buy a caravan park or an industrial unit.

Hmmmmmm.
Why would you? When you own land and storing vans makes more money than farming it.

Old McDonald · Feb 8, 2019

stewart said:
Do EU subs help farmers produce cheap food?

You may well be aware that that was not the original intention of subsidising farmers, but I am sure there are many who are not. The main purpose was to keep people on the land, or rather in the rural areas and so stop them from moving into the towns and cities and putting extra strain on the infrastucture and housing.

You might not know about Salazar the Portuguese dictator, but he thought it was wrong to educate the peasants because they would then be able to move into urban areas for employment and increase the aforementioned strain. Perhaps unfair on the peasants but good for the country. We peasants still produce a lot of what we consume, have some surplus to provide for those without land, and do not need the facilities of the city every day just to survive. Is it worth it to the average urban taxpayer to fork out a little to keep the peasants where they should be and thus relieve the strain on their day to day living? I do not know because I have never asked, but I suspect it might be.

stewart · Feb 8, 2019

Old McDonald said:
Your posts. They come across as being very bitter about the UK. Very similar to the expereinces I had in Australia. There were many who were disgruntled with what their lot had been in the UK and condemned it at every opportunity. You come across as having the same attitude.

I know you and I had direct posts to each other recently and some of that may have been smoothed out, but your posts do convey a sense of bitterness. Perhaps you do not realise it, but they do.

If they come across as bitter about the UK it is certainly unintentional, I actually like the UK and have many friends still there. I have to admit I have little time for the little Englander attitude that is prevalent on this Forum that may be where the responses appear bitter, they are intentionally churlish.

Old McDonald · Feb 8, 2019

I anticipated you would take my post in good heart and I accept that it is unintentional, but they do come across that way. I think too you will find that a lot of those who post here and favour Brexit are most definitely not "little Englanders". I would never claim to be English. My mother was in Northumberland at the time she gave birth to me, but at least I was born north of the Roman Wall which many people consider to be the "true" border.

wanton dwarf · Feb 8, 2019

stewart said:
Mmm I would not class Caravan storage as agricultural or even land based, If I wanted to take a living from such things I would just go and buy a caravan park or an industrial unit.

I don't think you get it. He's doing cereals and beef but gets more than enough income just from Caravans.

How is your beef and cereals going to compete with someone who doesn't need the profits you do from either ?

He can afford to invest .. keep his operation efficient and flatten out bumps in agricultural income .. it's win win.

stewart · Feb 8, 2019

wanton dwarf said:
I don't think you get it. He's doing cereals and beef but gets more than enough income just from Caravans.

How is your beef and cereals going to compete with someone who doesn't need the profits you do from either ?

He can afford to invest .. keep his operation efficient and flatten out bumps in agricultural income .. it's win win.

If anyone is going to have a loss making part of their business paid for by a profitable section then they will be hard to compete with, I am fairly sure the whole agricultural sector cannot store caravans so am not too concerned about competing with the odd one that can.

Danllan · Feb 8, 2019

stewart said:
If they come across as bitter about the UK it is certainly unintentional, I actually like the UK and have many friends still there. I have to admit I have little time for the little Englander* attitude that is prevalent on this Forum that may be where the responses appear bitter, they are intentionally churlish.

Does that include us in Wales too, if we support Brexit? Just take a moment and ask yourself two questions before applying that label:

1) If you had to choose today, would you want NZ to be subject to an unelected legislature that cost you a huge amount of money (£ half a trillion so far...) and, amongst many other negative aspects, guaranteed that your own population's most needy people were undercut in the job-market?

2) What is xenophobic / small-minded (Little-English?) about wanting to be able to trade more freely at our own behest with more countries, and to decide who from across the whole world is allowed entry to this country, rather than just have an exclusive automatic right of entry to Europeans?

I don't know of anyone, here on TFF or elsewhere (even in the 'real' world), who supports Brexit and is bitter about the issue. The bitterness I am aware of comes exclusively from the minority of Remain supporters who refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

*The term is generally used incorrectly nowadays; the Little England movement was one from the liberal persuasion who didn't want an Empire or colonies, be it for reasons of supposed expense or political ethics.

stewart · Feb 9, 2019

Danllan said:
Does that include us in Wales too, if we support Brexit? Just take a moment and ask yourself two questions before applying that label:

1) If you had to choose today, would you want NZ to be subject to an unelected legislature that cost you a huge amount of money (£ half a trillion so far...) and, amongst many other negative aspects, guaranteed that your own population's most needy people were undercut in the job-market?

2) What is xenophobic / small-minded (Little-English?) about wanting to be able to trade more freely at our own behest with more countries, and to decide who from across the whole world is allowed entry to this country, rather than just have an exclusive automatic right of entry to Europeans?

I don't know of anyone, here on TFF or elsewhere (even in the 'real' world), who supports Brexit and is bitter about the issue. The bitterness I am aware of comes exclusively from the minority of Remain supporters who refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

*The term is generally used incorrectly nowadays; the Little England movement was one from the liberal persuasion who didn't want an Empire or colonies, be it for reasons of supposed expense or political ethics.

To answer your questions, even though they way you put them is very one sided I will answer as best I can.

1. Firstly I will apologise for answering a question with a question, but just who or what is the unelected legislature that you are subject to? the Commissioners of the EU are appointed by their respective member states, i.e. your elected representatives in Parliament send someone who they deem to be suitable for the role. The UK Commissioner, among his roles, is responsible for Migration which is fairly ironic as this appears to be one of the reasons for Brexit.
I do not see allowing others from another country access to work as a negative, far from it if it is a country at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, by allowing them access to work this lifts their relative living standards which in turn means they can then buy goods from the weathier nations, NZ does this all the time, as for under cutting needy people I take it you are joking.

This is surely preferable to just sending foreign aid or are you suggesting that the UK should not help any other countries around the globe, even though they are financially able to do so.

2. Nothing at all wrong with wanting to be able to trade more freely with more countries, why then choose Brexit where you are potentially trading with less, or at least on more difficult terms.

The posts I read from those supporting remain don't appear bitter, most of them put up a fairly reasoned argument for staying, as do most of the Brexitears for leaving, with the vote so close around half the voters will be p!ssed off which ever way it went.

JP1 · Feb 9, 2019

caveman said:
Errrrrr.
Obrien is nowhere the man Farage is.
Apart from his constant and disgusting snides and jibes at the likes of JRM, Boris Nige etc, he will not conduct a fair debate, rather, he talks all over fair and valid opposition to his position, denying callers a fair say...........unless he gets the odd brexiteer, who may be, shall I say, a little slow........with whom he allows as much leash as they want and leads them into quagmire then tries to characature all leavers as the same.
A really nasty piece of work.

Yes. I've had the misfortune to tune in to him when I've been on the road and w

Hereward said:
To leave the EU.

Au revoir
Arrivederci
Auf Wiedersehen
See you later alligator.

That about sums it up, only we sent a bunch of remainer politicians backed up by even more remainer civil servants, so I'm not surprised the message got lost in translation.

I never realised David Davis (asleep for 18 months without taking notes), Dominic Raaaaab (the heir apparent so called) and Dr Fox were closet remainers ?

Bo Jo I'll grant you, I bet he spins about face even in one minute in oner room when he was Foreign Sec, so every public utterance after his actions had to fall back down to portraying himself as a leaver

Hereward · Feb 9, 2019

JP1 said:
Yes. I've had the misfortune to tune in to him when I've been on the road and w

I never realised David Davis (asleep for 18 months without taking notes), Dominic Raaaaab (the heir apparent so called) and Dr Fox were closet remainers ?

Bo Jo I'll grant you, I bet he spins about face even in one minute in oner room when he was Foreign Sec, so every public utterance after his actions had to fall back down to portraying himself as a leaver

If only David Davis had been given free reign to negotiate Brexit.

The fact is the EU cannot and will not give any sort of deal to the UK, Brexit cannot be seen as any sort of success otherwise the EU will crumble even faster than it is.

Project fear is failing, so the EU is now using Ireland as a political pawn, there is only one side that wants to put a border up in Ireland and its not the UK or Ireland its the EU.

JP1 · Feb 9, 2019

Hereward said:
If only David Davis had been given free reign to negotiate Brexit.

The fact is the EU cannot and will not give any sort of deal to the UK, Brexit cannot be seen as any sort of success otherwise the EU will crumble even faster than it is.

Project fear is failing, so the EU is now using Ireland as a political pawn, there is only one side that wants to put a border up in Ireland and its not the UK or Ireland its the EU.

Why did Davis stay so long then? Sorry, it just doesn't wash. The art of negotiation is to have good informed dialogue, to have chosen which of the doors you want to end up leaving to your advantage and getting there. Davis just turned round and walked off. At least he had a go though unlike the spineless BoJo

The "they need us more then we need them" line is pretty much blown away for the bluster it always was too

If I was a leave inclined strategist I've have spent all that dark money inciting another disgruntled member state to vote to leave first and been the second to leave. The EU will be forced to reform on many things in the future anyway.

Derrick Hughes · Feb 9, 2019

Labour have now pulled their trump card . We will support this deal that will destroy the Conservative Party

Hereward · Feb 9, 2019

JP1 said:
Why did Davis stay so long then? Sorry, it just doesn't wash. The art of negotiation is to have good informed dialogue, to have chosen which of the doors you want to end up leaving to your advantage and getting there. Davis just turned round and walked off. At least he had a go though unlike the spineless BoJo

The "they need us more then we need them" line is pretty much blown away for the bluster it always was too

If I was a leave inclined strategist I've have spent all that dark money inciting another disgruntled member state to vote to leave first and been the second to leave. The EU will be forced to reform on many things in the future anyway.

Good question why did Davis stay so long, I guess he had to try, the majority in parliament for remain meant he could not negotiate hard, we should of had No deal as the first choice and prepared for that, if we could negotiate a deal then great, but we're equally happy to walk away.

I think the EU will reform, as a consequence of Brexit, they will have. The EU is going to go from crisis to crisis, first Brexit next up will be the Euro, how do they sort that one. Well we'll find out soon the Italians have had enough.

Hereward · Feb 9, 2019

Forage Trader said:
Labour have now pulled their trump card . We will support this deal that will destroy the Conservative Party

Thats the problem, Labours trump card is a policy of nothing. The best things its done is keep Mays deal on the stove for another few weeks, which is a few weeks closer to No deal, secretly Jeremy will be pleased.

Remember only statute can over rule statute.

JP1 · Feb 9, 2019

Hereward said:
Good question why did Davis stay so long, I guess he had to try, the majority in parliament for remain meant he could not negotiate hard, we should of had No deal as the first choice and prepared for that, if we could negotiate a deal then great, but we're equally happy to walk away.

I think the EU will reform, as a consequence of Brexit, they will have. The EU is going to go from crisis to crisis, first Brexit next up will be the Euro, how do they sort that one. Well we'll find out soon the Italians have had enough.

With a month to go, we will have to see who blinks. I bet even amongst the most hard line they don't actually want a hard brexit when it comes to it. After March 29th a generation of politicians will end anyway

Hereward · Feb 9, 2019

JP1 said:
With a month to go, we will have to see who blinks. I bet even amongst the most hard line they don't actually want a hard brexit when it comes to it. After March 29th a generation of politicians will end anyway

Hard Brexit will be the best for the UK, just remember where the balance of trade is.

The UK holds all the cards, I hope neither blink so we can be free to go WTO.

I've said before why is free trade within the EU so great, although its not free there's a big membership fee, but with the rest of the world where the growing economies and opportunities are is seen as bad?

Again project fear, about chlorinated chicken, complete rubbish again designed to scaremonger.

JP1 · Feb 9, 2019

Hereward said:
Hard Brexit will be the best for the UK, just remember where the balance of trade is.

The UK holds all the cards, I hope neither blink so we can be free to go WTO.

I've said before why is free trade within the EU so great, although its not free there's a big membership fee, but with the rest of the world where the growing economies and opportunities are is seen as bad?

Again project fear, about chlorinated chicken, complete rubbish again designed to scaremonger.

Do you believe that Fox already has a deal on ag in place with the Americans?

Do you think the UK is equipped to repel any food from entering the UK that does not at least match our standards?

How many years do you think it will take before UK agriculture will be in a better position than it has been over the last 10 years?

Hereward · Feb 9, 2019

JP1 said:
Do you believe that Fox already has a deal on ag in place with the Americans?

Quite possibly, I don't think a deal will take long anyway.

JP1 said:
Do you think the UK is equipped to repel any food from entering the UK that does not at least match our standards?

We cannot at the moment, see how much GM food is already on UK supermarket shelves.
The EU cannot prevent it at present. We have all sorts of goods imported into the EU at present that don't meet EU production standards, you probably don't need to look much further than the shirt on your back.

Should we prevent imports that don't meet UK standards, absolutely, not only to ensure high standards for consumers and to maintain a level playing field but also because you import cheap product and export all its externalities. This is morally wrong and should be at the forefront of the publics mind, only its easy to dismiss as out of sight is out of mind.

JP1 said:
How many years do you think it will take before UK agriculture will be in a better position than it has been over the last 10 years?

Not many at all, perhaps two years, I'm a realist the UK is not really the country to be mass producing commodities at least in todays world, things change, always have always will.

EU shows its true colours

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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