CSFB and insecticide

Barleymow said:

I still plough and the fields are still covered in cobwebs amazing how quickly there made

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Yes, at the moment, I plough everything having gone back to it from Min-till.
I agree that the spider webs soon come back after drilling, especially with Rape, because the time between ploughing and drilling is so short.
However, how many more spiderwebs would there be if we hadn’t ploughed?

Our land slumps very easily, which is why ploughing suits this farm best at the moment. All crops establish much better, weed control is vastly superior and yields are much higher here with ploughing, instead of Min-till.

With regards Min-till, it amazes me how many times we tried it, then gave up and went back to ploughed. First, there was the Bomford Superflow and Vicon Jumbo-buster in the 70’s. Then the Haylock Triple in the late 80’s, then the Discordon and Sumo Trio more recently.
Is it all a scam by the Machinery manufacturers to make us spend vast amounts of money?


After 2022, we will all be strongly encouraged to go to NO-till., to continue to get maximum farm support payments that will replace BPS. So we need to look at NO-till. I have to say that I see some surprising benefits to it and although the full benefits of it probably won’t happen for a few years, I think it might work.

Providing, most of all, that we still can use Roundup.
Without which, it’s back to the plough yet again

Two Tone said:

Yes, at the moment, I plough everything having gone back to it from Min-till.
I agree that the spider webs soon come back after drilling, especially with Rape, because the time between ploughing and drilling is so short.
However, how many more spiderwebs would there be if we hadn’t ploughed?

Our land slumps very easily, which is why ploughing suits this farm best at the moment. All crops establish much better, weed control is vastly superior and yields are much higher here with ploughing, instead of Min-till.

With regards Min-till, it amazes me how many times we tried it, then gave up and went back to ploughed. First, there was the Bomford Superflow and Vicon Jumbo-buster in the 70’s. Then the Haylock Triple in the late 80’s, then the Discordon and Sumo Trio more recently.
Is it all a scam by the Machinery manufacturers to make us spend vast amounts of money?


After 2022, we will all be strongly encouraged to go to NO-till., to continue to get maximum farm support payments that will replace BPS. So we need to look at NO-till. I have to say that I see some surprising benefits to it and although the full benefits of it probably won’t happen for a few years, I think it might work.

Providing, most of all, that we still can use Roundup.
Without which, it’s back to the plough yet again

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You've been quite vocal about how no till isn't the answer to your bottom line in the past. Are you coming around to the notion it's not all that bad?

Brisel said:

You've been quite vocal about how no till isn't the answer to your bottom line in the past. Are you coming around to the notion it's not all that bad?

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Maybe!

I've been very vocal about how badly MIN-til hasn't worked here on this farm.
However, I was talking to a good friend about 10 miles away that is convinced it is the best thing since sliced bread on his farm. He once held the record for wheat yields too. Obviously a good farmer then! But his soil types are different to ours.

I have to admit as to being sceptical about NO-till, bearing in mind we are doing well using our plough based system, which we are very happy with.

I also have to admit that thanks to the "Public money for public goods" way in which our subs will change to a more environmentally basis, that I have had to start looking at NO-till AND that I am encouraged by what I am learning.

I have been to various demonstrations and had several meetings here with various experts on NO-till.


Two days ago I wrote quite a long report for the Owners and Directors of this farm, on where I see this farm's future lays with regards a post-Brexit future. Recommending that we continue looking in great detail into NO-till. But not to jump into it quite yet.

What is clear is that it isn't just about changing the way we drill our crops. We also need to change our rotation. But what alternative is there to Rape?

The answer is to take more advantage of a (our next) Countryside Stewardship agreement, take out of production some of the land that will not easily suit NO-till and use various CS option here that will make that land profitable.

Also, put the worst Blackgrass land we still have, into a 5 year Herb and Legume rich pasture, to replace some land which we already have in this option in our present agreement.

AND also find a CS Rotational Option, that will provide a new crop rotation for us, which will be rotated around the farm annually, just like a Break-crop.

This will maximise the new "Public money for public goods" and will be a win win for us.


So in answer to your question, YES!

I know we're going off topic here, but I believe you know a certain @Warnesworth ? He can help you make that transition from physics to biology.

B'o'B said:

Most of our no-till rape didn't look too bad - until stem extension started. There was a few grubs in the petioles but not huge numbers, but now stem extension has started there are some sizeable areas of the field where a grub has gone up the stem and burrowed in near the top of the main raceme and made the plant very unhappy. This year planting early seems to have been the best defence in this area, we hung on until September to drill hoping the CSFB would stop flying but they were still easily found in the garden in November. Neighbours earlier crops which were subsoiled in have coped much better with the pressure.

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This is exactly my scenario, although I drilled on the 24th August. No real pressure in the autumn by there are lots of plant affected now

A lot of these insecticides are contact or "knockdown" in their action. They aren't residual. You have to be a true optimist to believe, that even where there isn't a reisistance problem, they will have anything more than a very short lived transient effect.

Living next to woods here, I would guess that with a fair wind we are restocked with bugs the day after spraying.

For that reason, and for the general feeling of despair I have when seeing bumble bees rising up through the spray curtain as I go through the crop even at dusk or early morning, I don't use them at all any more.

I remember a time when grain trailers were heaving with earwigs and ladybirds. Now they are lifeless and sterile (just like people seem to want things) but for me it's a sign that somethings gone wrong.

DrWazzock said:

I remember a time when grain trailers were heaving with earwigs and ladybirds. Now they are lifeless and sterile (just like people seem to want things) but for me it's a sign that somethings gone wrong.

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The best paragraph I have read on here for a while.

DrWazzock said:

A lot of these insecticides are contact or "knockdown" in their action. They aren't residual. You have to be a true optimist to believe, that even where there isn't a reisistance problem, they will have anything more than a very short lived transient effect.

Living next to woods here, I would guess that with a fair wind we are restocked with bugs the day after spraying.

For that reason, and for the general feeling of despair I have when seeing bumble bees rising up through the spray curtain as I go through the crop even at dusk or early morning, I don't use them at all any more.

I remember a time when grain trailers were heaving with earwigs and ladybirds. Now they are lifeless and sterile (just like people seem to want things) but for me it's a sign that somethings gone wrong.

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My trailers are very often lousy with bugs and apparently I farm in all the 'wrong' ways

Flat 10 said:

My trailers are very often lousy with bugs and apparently I farm in all the 'wrong' ways

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I have cut back greatly on insectides. The cereals haven't had anything after Autumn for a few years now and this year none at all, (drilled in January though). The OSR likewise had very little insecticide. But rarely see a bug in a trailer load of grain. That's definitely a big change here. Maybe it's nothing to do with pesticides, but I can't think they help. Maybe it's climatic. No swallows for two years either now but the small owl put them off. Plenty of flies round the stock in summer, though the sheep are sprayed with fly treatment as are the cattle.

Two Tone said:

I went to Lodders Rural Conference earlier this month. One of the speakers was Dr Alastair Leake from the Game and Wildlife Conservancy Trust Farm in Leicestershire.

He claims that there is far less (if any) CSFB in No-till drilled fields. The reason he thinks this is the case is that spiders are far less disturbed and can quickly reestablish their webs between the remaining surface straw stubble. He doesn't think spiders eat the CSFB. But as they are caught in the webs, they cannot escape and other predators then eat them.

Would you concur @Clive?

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I had a field that i scratch tilled last autumn with a disc to get a chit them drilled it with w barley. When walking it one day over winter i noticed that anywhere there was some stubble left standing there were cobwebs, when leaving the field there were little spiders crawling all over my boots. It was yet another eye opener to the disaster that is tillage. Field got no insecticide in 3 years

jonnyjon said:

I had a field that i scratch tilled last autumn with a disc to get a chit them drilled it with w barley. When walking it one day over winter i noticed that anywhere there was some stubble left standing there were cobwebs, when leaving the field there were little spiders crawling all over my boots. It was yet another eye opener to the disaster that is tillage. Field got no insecticide in 3 years

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I think it was a Rothamsted person who stressed the value of money spiders, particularly against cereal aphids.

If you have money spiders, you have no aphids. If you apply a pyrethroid, you have no money spiders.

The more I look at it the more the CSFB problem appears varietal and cultural.

My neighbour's crop of vigorous Autumn growing variety (possibly campus) that was subsoiled in mid August looks excellent.

My semidwarf variety on ploughed land and on min till and on unloosened direct drill land looks rubbish. It never outgrew the FB in the autumn. It's just getting away now but won't achieve a decent yield as some are infected with grubs and rooting is rubbish. The roots are often just spread on the surface. Some have managed to tap down but not many on the DD land where it's a bit tight.

I think it's also a varietal problem as some conventional volunteers in amongst my semi dwarf variety are twice the size of my drilled variety and in excellent health.

Decision to grow a semi dwarf variety using expensive bought in seed for easier direct combining was probably the worst decision I made this year. Should have listened to my merchants rep.

Maybe there is time yet, but it will need a miracle the way it looks now.

DrWazzock said:

The more I look at it the more the CSFB problem appears varietal and cultural.

My neighbour's crop of vigorous Autumn growing variety (possibly campus) that was subsoiled in mid August looks excellent.

My semidwarf variety on ploughed land and on min till and on unloosened direct drill land looks rubbish. It never outgrew the FB in the autumn. It's just getting away now but won't achieve a decent yield as some are infected with grubs and rooting is rubbish. The roots are often just spread on the surface. Some have managed to tap down but not many on the DD land where it's a bit tight.

I think it's also a varietal problem as some conventional volunteers in amongst my semi dwarf variety are twice the size of my drilled variety and in excellent health.

Decision to grow a semi dwarf variety using expensive bought in seed for easier direct combining was probably the worst decision I made this year. Should have listened to my merchants rep.

Maybe there is time yet, but it will need a miracle the way it looks now.

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Those volunteers would likely have the equivalent of a much earlier “drilling date” to your planted semi-dwarf. Do you think that might be why they are doing better now?

Where I’ve overlapped herbicide sprays the flea beetle damage has shown up much worse now it’s trying to grow away to the point the plants are getting smaller instead of bigger. Not sure if it is the matazachlor/centium pre-em, the belkar or the kerb that’s effecting them. I wonder if the holes the grubs made let belkar or kerb into the plant? Or maybe it’s just the additional stress the herbicides put on the plants reduced their ability to withstand the CSFB attack. Over the rest of the fields the extent of the damage is closely related to the soil moisture holding capacity.

Pollen beetle numbers looking less severe today, I will keep monitoring but feel that I’m much less likely to spray than I was thinking last night.