Family farms - how do you cope?

spider mike · Nov 11, 2019

Spud said:
Hell Mike, thats rough. Have you any siblings?

I'm guessing the old boy is less physically able than he once was, so spends more time doing paperwork than you? I'm assuming you are involved in accountant and bank manager meetings?

I think in your shoes I'd be doing some sums - cost of production, costings for things you can tweak to improve profitability - he'll probably rubbish them (my father did that if he didn't agree with them) but it at least shows a bit of business acumen. Some folk seem to need to do others down to compensate for their own inadequacies.

How did your father succeed his father? (assuming he did just that)

Ignore idle threats - if he plays the farm sale card, call his bluff - remind him just how final that will be for his family legacy.

Money isn't everything - but your nearest and dearest are.

Hi Spud.
Yes, I have a sister but she gave up on him years ago. She spends alot of time with my mother and tolerates him when he's about the house.
As for anything to do with the business meetings with the bank manager account etc are handled by him I only get told after the event. They usually happen after market type of thing. In the past I tried to get involved only to be told I need to be spraying or fencing times precious and two of us can't be away . I wanted to go and buy livestock but was put down.
In the past whenever I've made a business decision it's not been the way he's wanted the business to go and he hasn't been shy in going through me like a dose of salts. So much so I haven't any confidence to do anything like that any more.
I can run the farm with my eyes closed but the financial aspects now daunt me.
As for the threats it has been known for him to get hot headed and cut his nose off to spite his face

Blaithin · Nov 11, 2019

abitdaft said:
You're a clever lass, just find a way to say it out loud. Drip feed her a new wonderful life filled with romance and adventure, just let her think that it is her plan. Slightly Machiavellian ( I actually spelled that without googling!!!!! ) but sometimes needs must.

Last year we bought a house in town. It’s only 40 minutes from the farm. I thought Great! Now we can have our own space, our own lives, she can still come visit regularly and work around the farm, etc etc.

Apparently she will “never live in town” and despite moaning about doing many chores, contrarily says she enjoys them. She also seems to have a set belief that if she’s not around no animals will ever be fed or watered again.

So for the last few months I’ve been confused as to why we bought a house in town which is now tying my name up to make it harder for me to buy something of my own that I can lock the gate on

Family really are the people in ones life that you can have no impact on. Friends at least tend to listen to your opinion, family are just convinced they all know better than you all the time.

Ive recently had a change in job so that the town house wouldn’t be so far away for me to get to work. I could conceivably go live there instead. So far the fact that she doesn’t like my landlord has stopped me from doing that. I don’t want to lose the acreage because she can be a crusty old madam. But that thought is now in the back of my mind - I can move out and be the separated party

Dead Rabbits · Nov 12, 2019

No advice, sorry. What I’ve seen in a lot of family farms is no communication, important decisions made solely on emotion and very little thought put into what happens when someone dies. All of these lead to nowhere good.

My dad and his brothers farm in partnership and bought the farm from their parents at market rates with market interest rates. Nothing has ever been handed down.

The youngest is now 62 and there are 10 kids, two step children and 3 wives. One cousin and I are the only ones with an interest in farming and we saw the writing on the wall about 6 years ago. A sh!t show is coming if people start dying. One of the wives and several of the cousins are money hungry asses. We have been pushing them to make plans for their assets since.

It’s been very slow and took a lot of cajoling but we have a rough plan in place for my cousin and I the buy the property. It’s been goin at a snails pace. It that’s fine. We are splitting all but one hundred acres that we will jointly own. I get more land but no buildings and he gets less land but all the buildings and a house.

We are just at the point where we need to involve lawyers and get everything in writing so it’s not resolved just yet.

I worked full time from the age of 9 to 17 and was paid a bit but was always told I shouldn’t farm and to go to college and get a “good job”. “There ain’t no money in farmin.” True enough for them, they haven’t run a profitable farm for 10 years but have zero debt. They are very risk averse and hate debt.

This has worked so far because we haven’t involved any of the wives or cousins in the discussion. My siblings and cousins siblings get nothing of the farm. He and I are purchasing it for an agreed upon price and interest rate. Importantly also is that should things fall apart between me and my cousin we only have to tolerate each other, not be in a full blown business together.We get the deed to the land once everyone is dead and will not be able to mortgage the property.

Not for everyones situation but it should keep peace in the family and keep the land in the same name. Something we all want.

I have ultimately decided after years of thought that I can’t bear to see the farm sold off and it would be a huge regret in my life if I don’t buy it. Despite being away for ten years it’s my home and made me who I am.

glasshouse · Nov 12, 2019

Dead Rabbits said:
No advice, sorry. What I’ve seen in a lot of family farms is no communication, important decisions made solely on emotion and very little thought put into what happens when someone dies. All of these lead to nowhere good.

My dad and his brothers farm in partnership and bought the farm from their parents at market rates with market interest rates. Nothing has ever been handed down.

The youngest is now 62 and there are 10 kids, two step children and 3 wives. One cousin and I are the only ones with an interest in farming and we saw the writing on the wall about 6 years ago. A sh!t show is coming if people start dying. One of the wives and several of the cousins are money hungry asses. We have been pushing them to make plans for their assets since.

It’s been very slow and took a lot of cajoling but we have a rough plan in place for my cousin and I the buy the property. It’s been goin at a snails pace. It that’s fine. We are splitting all but one hundred acres that we will jointly own. I get more land but no buildings and he gets less land but all the buildings and a house.

We are just at the point where we need to involve lawyers and get everything in writing so it’s not resolved just yet.

I worked full time from the age of 9 to 17 and was paid a bit but was always told I shouldn’t farm and to go to college and get a “good job”. “There ain’t no money in farmin.” True enough for them, they haven’t run a profitable farm for 10 years but have zero debt. They are very risk averse and hate debt.

This has worked so far because we haven’t involved any of the wives or cousins in the discussion. My siblings and cousins siblings get nothing of the farm. He and I are purchasing it for an agreed upon price and interest rate. Importantly also is that should things fall apart between me and my cousin we only have to tolerate each other, not be in a full blown business together.We get the deed to the land once everyone is dead and will not be able to mortgage the property.

Not for everyones situation but it should keep peace in the family and keep the land in the same name. Something we all want.

I have ultimately decided after years of thought that I can’t bear to see the farm sold off and it would be a huge regret in my life if I don’t buy it. Despite being away for ten years it’s my home and made me who I am.

So the family lent the money to buy the farm, but "nothing was handed down"

Dead Rabbits · Nov 12, 2019

glasshouse said:
So the family lent the money to buy the farm, but "nothing was handed down"

Call the 16% interest paid on the loan free I guess? It’s an owner financed loan.

czechmate · Nov 12, 2019

Dead Rabbits said:
Call the 16% interest paid on the loan free I guess? It’s an owner financed loan.

Sorry to be nosey but if nothing is handed down, what do the sellers do with the money ?

chipchap · Nov 12, 2019

Dead Rabbits said:
No advice, sorry. What I’ve seen in a lot of family farms is no communication, important decisions made solely on emotion and very little thought put into what happens when someone dies. All of these lead to nowhere good.

My dad and his brothers farm in partnership and bought the farm from their parents at market rates with market interest rates. Nothing has ever been handed down.

The youngest is now 62 and there are 10 kids, two step children and 3 wives. One cousin and I are the only ones with an interest in farming and we saw the writing on the wall about 6 years ago. A sh!t show is coming if people start dying. One of the wives and several of the cousins are money hungry asses. We have been pushing them to make plans for their assets since.

It’s been very slow and took a lot of cajoling but we have a rough plan in place for my cousin and I the buy the property. It’s been goin at a snails pace. It that’s fine. We are splitting all but one hundred acres that we will jointly own. I get more land but no buildings and he gets less land but all the buildings and a house.

We are just at the point where we need to involve lawyers and get everything in writing so it’s not resolved just yet.

I worked full time from the age of 9 to 17 and was paid a bit but was always told I shouldn’t farm and to go to college and get a “good job”. “There ain’t no money in farmin.” True enough for them, they haven’t run a profitable farm for 10 years but have zero debt. They are very risk averse and hate debt.

This has worked so far because we haven’t involved any of the wives or cousins in the discussion. My siblings and cousins siblings get nothing of the farm. He and I are purchasing it for an agreed upon price and interest rate. Importantly also is that should things fall apart between me and my cousin we only have to tolerate each other, not be in a full blown business together.We get the deed to the land once everyone is dead and will not be able to mortgage the property.

Not for everyones situation but it should keep peace in the family and keep the land in the same name. Something we all want.

I have ultimately decided after years of thought that I can’t bear to see the farm sold off and it would be a huge regret in my life if I don’t buy it. Despite being away for ten years it’s my home and made me who I am.

Well done in sorting out a very complicated situation.

In is unfortunate that the tax man often puts his hand out in this type of situation.

Good luck.

David. · Nov 12, 2019

I think it is ironic that families talk about keeping a farm in the family, that they have to then keep buying at valuation every generation. Does it not occur that all they are doing is working for the Banks and Taxman?

jendan · Nov 12, 2019

czechmate said:
Hmm, there's a lot to be said for "least said, soonest mended"

My late father used to say that to me very often when i was young and foolish.It is so very true.

glasshouse · Nov 12, 2019

Dead Rabbits said:
Call the 16% interest paid on the loan free I guess? It’s an owner financed loan.

I wish i could get an owner financed loan.
Rather easier terms than the banks

SilliamWhale · Nov 12, 2019

spider mike said:
Seems I'm not the only one with issues. I'm nearly fifty and in a jokingly family partnership with my parents who are in their late 70s. Call it jokingly as it's still more of a dictatorship. Started working properly at 13 feeding up either end of the day when at school and full time weekends and holidays.
Wasn't allowed to stop on and do A levels even though my school wanted me to. Was threatened again with a farm sale when wanted to go to college, he could teach me more in a month than they could in 3 years apparently. Saving grace was made a partner in the trading business at 21 but mainly to reduce his tax burden never drawn anything out other than a subsistance wage. Fast forward a few years the purchase of more land more buildings put up and a lot more stock saw alot more work and arguments with both father wanting everything done yesterday and my then wife saying I and my farm had ruined her life she up and left taking our two daughters and my trading capital.
I married again and have a son whose starting to show an interest but father won't acknowledge him won't have anything to do with my other half as it's my fault for losing the business so much money and him his precious grand daughters
Now I'm starting to worry tensions are high I've nowt no savings no pension. It was always one day lad this will all be yours so like it and lump it till then. But as he's got older he's got more obstinate and says I'm the problem I couldn't run the farm and not fit to run it and I'm gonna get bypassed.
I haven't got my name on any assets still just the actual trading part. I'm sick tired pee'd off but seem like I'm trapped. Anyone any suggestions other than walking away from 35yrs of toIl with nothing but what seems like the clothes on my back

Do you not see your daughters?

glasshouse · Nov 12, 2019

The only thing thst gets handed down on tenanted farms is the overdraft.
The next generation have to keep the older ones going

David. · Nov 12, 2019

Not quite true of there is a secure tenancy with another generation or two to run though surely, or if pre-emptive right to purchase applies... There will be plenty of tenants whose previous generations have secured off farm investments.

som farmer · Nov 12, 2019

farmed in a ptnr with uncle, father and cousin, all decisions, made by the 2, all money by 1, worked very well ,until 1 died, and siblings wanted their 'share', anyway, prtnr split, I went on my own, on a much smaller farm, never having seen the accounts, no substantial bank account etc, and have struggled as tenant since. Cousin continued on, with his ageing father, who would never give any praise for anything, but would rant and rave at the smallest negative, time goes by, uncle dies, cousin on his own, but after years of being shouted at, at 70, he can't make decisions, nobody can buy anything direct off him, because he is scared of being 'done' he wants stupid money, there are expensive machines in sheds, because no one will offer what he thinks they are worth, has sold some at sales, when they sell well under his value, 'oh well, win some, lose some'.
Long post, but it shows what can happen, and may be of some help, to someone in the same position, you are not on your own.
On my side, being a very good practical (?) farmer, but no business money side, it has taken a long time, but getting there, I have passed the 'reigns' over to my son,( for health reasons), but he can get on with farming, he has to manage the money as well, but, I am still here, and can give advice etc.

som farmer · Nov 12, 2019

bloody hee, dead rabbits, that was quick.

Farma Parma · Nov 12, 2019

Without going into too much of my family's ups n downs on here the only advice I'll pass on is there should always only be one BOSS not Three as there was here many moons ago nigh on buggered the business back in the late 80's.
So relieved late Father had the Farm Tenancy that's all.

fov63 · Nov 12, 2019

Bill the Bass said:
I have generally held that view, but if you are not careful you can just become a pushover and before you know it you are middle aged and a million miles away from achieving what you thought was possible in your twenties with all your drive and ambition replaced by bitterness towards those that you hold most dear.

Never a truer word spoken (typed) I find myself in the position of being mid 50's wife - two children etc with absolutely nothing behind me. No house or vehicle in my name, No current control on Farm decisions / finance. Brief history - born into family farm, father not interested in farming just the cash. Started ploughing, drilling and combine driving from age of 11 and things seemed better once I left school. However carrot dangled several times to ensure I stayed at home and worked but nothing ever materialised. I was taken on as a partner but Father was fiddling the books (as we had a lot of cash crops) so my share in Farm never grew. When I wanted to leave he threatened with hell fire and damnation and every court in the country, so leaving would financially ruin me. He will not retire nor step aside nor disclose whats in his Will so I could be working my nuts off for nothing. - Any young person going into family farming business please make sure you can trust your peers!!

Netherfield · Nov 12, 2019

Nearly said:
Been lucky in most bits but we've 80 acres next to @Netherfield that's going to be my 2 kids versus their 8 cousins once removed. I can't see any good coming of that on potential building land that has been in the family for 120 years.
Best to split it now but it's complicated, access etc.

You may find it very difficult to split, and expensive legally, 'ask me how I know that'. Very tersely we arranged dad's funeral in July and have not spoken since.
I'm fortunately not receiving anything in his will, we sorted things long before his death, but along with my elder brother I am joint executor of the estate, but my sister still wants to stick her oar in where it doesn't belong.

It's not only farms which suffer this problem, local scrap yard have a family feud going on, a few years ago two brothers butchering fell out over one wanting to retire at 60.

puppet · Nov 12, 2019

fov63 said:
Never a truer word spoken (typed) I find myself in the position of being mid 50's wife - two children etc with absolutely nothing behind me. I was taken on as a partner but Father was fiddling the books (as we had a lot of cash crops) so my share in Farm never grew. When I wanted to leave he threatened with hell fire and damnation and every court in the country, so leaving would financially ruin me. He will not retire nor step aside nor disclose whats in his Will so I could be working my nuts off for nothing. - Any young person going into family farming business please make sure you can trust your peers!!

Have you actually got a partnership agreement? Usually it would set out terms to allow a partner to leave and the other to pay them out over a period of time. If so then you have a share of the business which would include moveable items such as vehicles and stock must be worth something. How could he take you to court as he would owe YOU money. If no agreement then still a good case if the accounts show a profit share for many years.
As many cases above, do you gamble on something in his will at 65 or having 10 years to do something different with whatever the business owes you and get away from his moaning?
Depends how fed up you are and you need some legal advice.

chipchap · Nov 12, 2019

Just as a matter of information, as I understand it. The provisions of a Partnership Agreement over-ride the provisions of a partner’s will. So if you casually suggest that a partnership agreement would be a good idea, you can be sure that what is stated in the partnership agreement will stand legally, irrespective of the provisions of any one partner’s will.

If you are in an informal partnership with no written agreement, and the other partners are unwilling to draw up an agreement, you should get the hell out of there.

Family farms - how do you cope?

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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