Concerned about Red Tractor collapse.

snarling bee · Dec 22, 2021

Humble Village Farmer said:
Fair play to you for engaging on here, particularly in view of the absence of any official defence of your union's policies and the constant criticism which they attract; justified criticism in my view.

Despite claims, the nfu clearly have no influence with government, judging by the trade deals recently announced and various other failed attempts to influence policy.

Their involvement in the red tractor debacle is definitely against nearly every farmer's best interest, no matter how many times it's claimed to the contrary.

They allow non farming members to drive farming policy instead of restricting membership to genuine farmers.

Their closeness to other organisations whose role is to profit from farmers is questionable.

Considering the above, I think they do more harm than good for the grass roots industry.

They own the red tractor who only publish very vague and scant accounts which appear designed to confuse or obscure.

The problem is replying to those that know they are talking b00l0cks but do it just to criticise. Anybody can say what they like on this forum, and other forms of social media, without any correction, unless some unfortunate such as myself feels the need to pull them up.
What is a real shame is that there are some bright people on here, with great ideas, who occasionally let themselves down with completely incorrect and irrational statements, and it stifles proper debate.

Can you substantiate your comments above, or is it what you have read on TFF from the keyboard warriors. You cannot possibly say that the NFU has no influence on Govt when either an officeholder or an employee have numerous meetings every week with ministers or civil servants.

Non farming members have NO influence on NFU policy.

I'm not sure that NFU is close to any other organisation that profits from farmers. There is not even as big a link with the NFU mutual as some seem to think. NFU does own an energy and renewables company that should make a profit, but there are other competitive companies that any farmer is free to use.

If I thought that the NFU did more harm than good do you think I would waste probably 30 days a year being involved. Its a ridiculous statement in my view.

NFU do not own RT. If NFU were not involved however, RT would be considerably worse that it is now. Does the NFU try to influence from the inside or from the outside?? The V5 standards are considerably less onerous than those originally proposed.

I wish I could take some of you to NFU Council to see what really goes on. If you really want to get involved I'm sure in a few years you would get voted in to represent your county, if you are as eloquent as you seem to be on here.

I said I would not post again on this thread. I mean it this time as I still have a long list of jobs to do before Christmas. Have a good one.

Humble Village Farmer · Dec 22, 2021

Grass And Grain said:
Probably harder to get any change in the RT livestock sectors than in combinables. Combinables should be easy to get change due to the clear double standards!

As far as livestock go, the vet herd health plan (annual???) seems the most unnecessarily burdensome?

It's all pointless when you can sell in the live market for the same price.

Humble Village Farmer · Dec 22, 2021

Grass And Grain said:
NFU lobby on all sorts. No problem, all good. Obvs they can't be all things to all men, but do OK.

But on this RT unlevel playing field issue, they've avoided it like the plague. Only getting involved because we've kicked up a stink. Still no mention of it at all in NFU emails. They just don't want to get involved of they can help it, as it goes against what they've always supported - RT. Tom Bradshaw seems to be only one who's done anything.

NFU seem to have previously made no attempt to bring fairness to imports vs RT standards. They supported RT for cereals knowing full well it was adding cost to UK producers and then gets blended with lower standard imports. What sort of a farming union could think that was a good idea.

Like what?

snarling bee · Dec 22, 2021

DrWazzock said:
Tell me of one thing the NFU batted off? Maybe there are things we don’t hear about. I’m all ears. If the NFU has won concessions or victories in negotiations then it would boost morale surely?

Badger Cull

Grass And Grain · Dec 22, 2021

neilo said:
A herd/flock health plan is actually quite a sensible idea, and was only ever a case of writing out what you do and why. The process of doing that just shows that you have thought about it, which one would hope most livestock farmers would do as a matter of course, even if they don't put it on paper. In reality it rarely chnages from year to year, so was just a case of signing & dating annually to say so.

The only really contentious part was when RT started insisting a vet should prepare it, adding a cost of £170 or so, when the vet ultimately writes the same thing out as I dictate it to him.

It's tosh, just not particularly onerous tosh at the moment.

Is it annual for the vet to prepare herd health plan, or just a one off?

neilo · Dec 22, 2021

Humble Village Farmer said:
It's all pointless when you can sell in the live market for the same price.

There is often still a small premium on FA lamb in the live mart, although not so much when there is a short supply. In fat cattle it's even more noticeable. If you wish to sell dw, and access premium contracts, then RT is a requisite.

As for store stock, for as long as animals can become FA after a short residency period, then it won't make a lot of difference. How that can continue IF (and it's a big IF) assurance means anything at all, I don't know.

David. · Dec 22, 2021

I think there is a risk that some vet practices may be unwilling to supply meds for farmers to administer, if they have no input into how, where and how appropriately they are used.
The health plan meeting with coffee, at least let's vets see the farm once a year to continue to justify the supply of appropriate antibiotics, etc for the farmer to responsibly administer, without the need tor vet to sign each treatment off.
Personally I think it a very worthwhile hour spent.

tullah · Dec 22, 2021

I think the non farming union know that the only reason we have got this far with the tickbox rt grain is because of hard work done by the team on here. They will try and rubbish us and take all the credit for what's been achieved here for themselves
...immoral to say the least.

neilo · Dec 22, 2021

Grass And Grain said:
Is it annual for the vet to prepare herd health plan, or just a one off?

Annual, along with a review of antibiotic usage (compiled from vet sales), and preferably with their own template. It's just the bill for the vet's time that is the biggest issue.

That cost will be covered by one of the new items in the new Ag scheme, or as part of a few Health schemes elsewhere. I have mine as part of a Welsh govt funded health project, and I work quite closely with my vet anyway.

neilo · Dec 22, 2021

David. said:
I think there is a risk that some vet practices may be unwilling to supply meds for farmers to administer, if they have no input into how, where and how appropriately they are used.
The health plan meeting with coffee at least let's vets see the farm once a year to continue to justify the supply of appropriate antibiotics, etc for the farmer to responsibly administer, without the need tor vet to sign each treatment off.
Personally I think it a very worthwhile hour spent.

An annual visit/chat is legally required to prescribe POM products now I think, and we will be asked to declare that we have had such a visit in order to export meat to the EU from mid-January.

David. · Dec 22, 2021

Those that are hoping for total collapse and removal of FA had better be "visitor ready" 365 days a year.
I can foresee mills, who themselves are subject to anytime inspections by their big buyers, making it a condition of dealing with them that they can similarly drop by for a lookee unannounced.
We may all then be wishing that there was once again a fairly benign scheme that was verified by a half onside, non-confrontational assessor, once a year at a mutually convenient time, with the farm having had fair warning to brush the yard up a bit.

Grass And Grain · Dec 22, 2021

David. said:
Those that are hoping for total collapse and removal of FA had better be "visitor ready" 365 days a year.
I can foresee mills, who themselves are subject to anytime inspections by their big buyers, making it a condition of dealing with them that they can similarly drop by for a lookee unannounced.
We may all then be wishing that there was once again a fairly benign scheme that was verified by a half onside, non-confrontational assessor, once a year at a mutually convenient time, with the farm having had fair warning to brush the yard up a bit.

Don't mind what the rules are (within reason). I do take exception to the fact that processors are happy when imports have NO FARM ASSURANCE, yet require it of us. That's the rub.

Don't see how any UK farmer can be happy with that.

Humble Village Farmer · Dec 22, 2021

snarling bee said:
The problem is replying to those that know they are talking b00l0cks but do it just to criticise. Anybody can say what they like on this forum, and other forms of social media, without any correction, unless some unfortunate such as myself feels the need to pull them up.
What is a real shame is that there are some bright people on here, with great ideas, who occasionally let themselves down with completely incorrect and irrational statements, and it stifles proper debate.

Can you substantiate your comments above, or is it what you have read on TFF from the keyboard warriors. You cannot possibly say that the NFU has no influence on Govt when either an officeholder or an employee have numerous meetings every week with ministers or civil servants.

Non farming members have NO influence on NFU policy.

I'm not sure that NFU is close to any other organisation that profits from farmers. There is not even as big a link with the NFU mutual as some seem to think. NFU does own an energy and renewables company that should make a profit, but there are other competitive companies that any farmer is free to use.

If I thought that the NFU did more harm than good do you think I would waste probably 30 days a year being involved. Its a ridiculous statement in my view.

NFU do not own RT. If NFU were not involved however, RT would be considerably worse that it is now. Does the NFU try to influence from the inside or from the outside?? The V5 standards are considerably less onerous than those originally proposed.

I wish I could take some of you to NFU Council to see what really goes on. If you really want to get involved I'm sure in a few years you would get voted in to represent your county, if you are as eloquent as you seem to be on here.

I said I would not post again on this thread. I mean it this time as I still have a long list of jobs to do before Christmas. Have a good one.

Thanks for the reply.

You are right, a lot of what I said I'm not certain is absolute fact.

For a start, I don't know whether Frontier for instance are members of the NFU, or Sainsbury or Tesco, or my local feed mill, flour mill or agchem supplier such as Origin fertiliser who own Agrii. What about British Sugar or Central Wool Growers, are they members?

And if you dare admit that any of the above are members, what's their membership fee? Because some of these corporations also co-own the British Retail Consortium, (co owners of the dead tractor alongside the NFU), and membership fees in the tens or even hundreds of thousands, for a chance to influence policy at NFU, AIC, and the dead tractor, would be hard to turn down, compared to a few hundred smackers from the average hairy arsed farmer with a couple of hundred acres. You can afford to pee a few of them off in exchange for a Sainsbury or a Tesco subscription.

You see my point? The whole system looks absolutely rotten to me and set up to fleece the farmer and consumer. But then I can't say for sure because it's all kept very quite and under wraps. Without evidence on membership, it's difficult not to be suspicious of their motives.

Happy Christmas and have a good 2022 on the farm.

Raider112 · Dec 22, 2021

David. said:
Those that are hoping for total collapse and removal of FA had better be "visitor ready" 365 days a year.
I can foresee mills, who themselves are subject to anytime inspections by their big buyers, making it a condition of dealing with them that they can similarly drop by for a lookee unannounced.
We may all then be wishing that there was once again a fairly benign scheme that was verified by a half onside, non-confrontational assessor, once a year at a mutually convenient time, with the farm having had fair warning to brush the yard up a bit.

I don't think many think the idea of farm assurance is a bad idea but since it became a protection racket that was basically a compulsory protection racket that gives no premium there's not much anyone can say realistically to defend it.

snarling bee · Dec 22, 2021

tullah said:
I think the non farming union know that the only reason we have got this far with the tickbox rt grain is because of hard work done by the team on here. They will try and rubbish us and take all the credit for what's been achieved here for themselves
...immoral to say the least.

The NFU, has never taken all the credit for pushing back on RT. I have never done that, in fact on another thread that is what I have said. TFF should take a bit of credit as well. But for TFF to claim all the credit would be also immoral.
Unfortunately as long some on here spout inaccuracies in order to critisise the NFU then TFF will not be flavour of the month at the NFU. Perhaps if you don't want to be rubbished by the the NFU then don't rubbish them.

In any debate there needs to be constructive criticism, as soon as untruths are told and personal accusations are made than the argument looses its validity.
If you want to make change keep it accurate, sensible and real. There are some proper valid points on here - don't spoil it with insults.

Humble Village Farmer · Dec 22, 2021

David. said:
I think there is a risk that some vet practices may be unwilling to supply meds for farmers to administer, if they have no input into how, where and how appropriately they are used.
The health plan meeting with coffee, at least let's vets see the farm once a year to continue to justify the supply of appropriate antibiotics, etc for the farmer to responsibly administer, without the need tor vet to sign each treatment off.
Personally I think it a very worthwhile hour spent.

Christ! it would have to be iced coffee at the vet's hourly rate! For him to drink in the car on the way to the next appointment.

While everyone values the vet's knowledge and experience, a visit is hard to justify on livestock returns. The corporate food system wants to buy our product at the cost of production and then expects us to pay the vet to sign a piece of paper at Fluffy the rabbit prices. So what happens is that units expand to gain economies of scale which helps with the cost of the vet. Then it's not such a big step to factory farming and the type of situations we saw on the Panorama / Dispatches a few weeks ago on the programme about red tractor certified chicken production.

It would be great to have Mr Farnon over for a chat and a piece of Mrs Pumfrey's madiera cake every now and then, but the returns on the average farm don't allow for too many such extravagances like that. Throw in your dead tractor protection money and you are getting into an extra few hundred quid of costs for no benefit.

The problem in all of this is the farmer's share of the retail value of what we sell.

principal skinner · Dec 22, 2021

David. said:
Those that are hoping for total collapse and removal of FA had better be "visitor ready" 365 days a year.
I can foresee mills, who themselves are subject to anytime inspections by their big buyers, making it a condition of dealing with them that they can similarly drop by for a lookee unannounced.
We may all then be wishing that there was once again a fairly benign scheme that was verified by a half onside, non-confrontational assessor, once a year at a mutually convenient time, with the farm having had fair warning to brush the yard up a bit.

I used to deliver wheat into a flour mill, the sight of the employees trying to scare the ducks off the intake on inspection day was a sight to behold. Tip covered in duck and goose sh!t all year round

tullah · Dec 22, 2021

principal skinner said:
I used to deliver wheat into a flour mill, the sight of the employees trying to scare the ducks off the intake on inspection day was a sight to behold. Tip covered in duck and goose sh!t all year round

You should see the gulls all over the hold when the imports are unloaded.

texelburger · Dec 22, 2021

snarling bee said:
In all the time I have been involved I have NEVER heard anyone at NFU talk about countryside or any other form of membership other than a number of members which might get mentioned once a year. We ALWAYS only debate/talk about how policy affects farming and agriculture, nothing else. There is not a single representative on Council from any other membership class other than full farming member that I am aware of.

But some seem to think that the NFU invent the rules that everybody detests. NFU is not Government. The NFU tries to change the rules if it can and influence those that make the rules as much as possible.

No doubt you are on first name terms with your MP who does exactly as you wish in every vote concerning farming and the countryside.

This is my final post on this thread.

Do you believe everything you read on this forum?? Ring me if you wish.

Well to end all the confusion is it possible for you to get a breakdown of the NFU membership and bring an end to all this speculation ? Perhaps they could let you know how many members have a holding number and a breakdown of the acres farmed.They should have these records as membership costs depend on your acreage.

tullah · Dec 22, 2021

texelburger said:
Well to end all the confusion is it possible for you to get a breakdown of the NFU membership and bring an end to all this speculation ? Perhaps they could let you know how many members have a holding number and a breakdown of the acres farmed.They should have these records as membership costs depend on your acreage.

They'll let you know in six months time as committee meetings will be necessary to authorise answer.

Concerned about Red Tractor collapse.

Member

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0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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