Family farms - how do you cope?

som farmer · Nov 12, 2019

chipchap said:
Just as a matter of information, as I understand it. The provisions of a Partnership Agreement over-ride the provisions of a partner’s will. So if you casually suggest that a partnership agreement would be a good idea, you can be sure that what is stated in the partnership agreement will stand legally, irrespective of the provisions of any one partner’s will.

If you are in an informal partnership with no written agreement, and the other partners are unwilling to draw up an agreement, you should get the hell out of there.

an informal partnership, in the event of 'trouble' you revert back to the 1895 partnership act, which basically splits it 50/50. I use the word trouble, as I couldn't think of a better word, it can be useful in some special cases, but generally better to have everything settled !

chipchap · Nov 12, 2019

som farmer said:
an informal partnership, in the event of 'trouble' you revert back to the 1895 partnership act, which basically splits it 50/50. I use the word trouble, as I couldn't think of a better word, it can be useful in some special cases, but generally better to have everything settled !

Yes, but the difficulty maylie in deciding which assets actually belong to the partnership, or whether there is actually a partnership at all.

2wheels · Nov 12, 2019

Blaithin said:
Last year we bought a house in town. It’s only 40 minutes from the farm. I thought Great! Now we can have our own space, our own lives, she can still come visit regularly and work around the farm, etc etc.

Apparently she will “never live in town” and despite moaning about doing many chores, contrarily says she enjoys them. She also seems to have a set belief that if she’s not around no animals will ever be fed or watered again.

So for the last few months I’ve been confused as to why we bought a house in town which is now tying my name up to make it harder for me to buy something of my own that I can lock the gate on

Family really are the people in ones life that you can have no impact on. Friends at least tend to listen to your opinion, family are just convinced they all know better than you all the time.

Ive recently had a change in job so that the town house wouldn’t be so far away for me to get to work. I could conceivably go live there instead. So far the fact that she doesn’t like my landlord has stopped me from doing that. I don’t want to lose the acreage because she can be a crusty old madam. But that thought is now in the back of my mind - I can move out and be the separated party

sorry to hear of your problems, us old buggers can be bloody awkward but also try to remember that most of us end up being like our parents.

Dead Rabbits · Nov 12, 2019

czechmate said:
Sorry to be nosey but if nothing is handed down, what do the sellers do with the money ?

I seem to have a long lived family. The money paid is their retirement income.

czechmate said:
Sorry to be nosey but if nothing is handed down, what do the sellers do with the money ?

Have very long retirements. They had no other outside income stream from the farm. Grandfather 16 years and grandmother 26 years. The brothers took very good care of their parents. They were both able to stay in their house until the very end with all of us pitching in for 24/7 care.

le bon paysan · Nov 12, 2019

spider mike said:
Seems I'm not the only one with issues. I'm nearly fifty and in a jokingly family partnership with my parents who are in their late 70s. Call it jokingly as it's still more of a dictatorship. Started working properly at 13 feeding up either end of the day when at school and full time weekends and holidays.
Wasn't allowed to stop on and do A levels even though my school wanted me to. Was threatened again with a farm sale when wanted to go to college, he could teach me more in a month than they could in 3 years apparently. Saving grace was made a partner in the trading business at 21 but mainly to reduce his tax burden never drawn anything out other than a subsistance wage. Fast forward a few years the purchase of more land more buildings put up and a lot more stock saw alot more work and arguments with both father wanting everything done yesterday and my then wife saying I and my farm had ruined her life she up and left taking our two daughters and my trading capital.
I married again and have a son whose starting to show an interest but father won't acknowledge him won't have anything to do with my other half as it's my fault for losing the business so much money and him his precious grand daughters
Now I'm starting to worry tensions are high I've nowt no savings no pension. It was always one day lad this will all be yours so like it and lump it till then. But as he's got older he's got more obstinate and says I'm the problem I couldn't run the farm and not fit to run it and I'm gonna get bypassed.
I haven't got my name on any assets still just the actual trading part. I'm sick tired pee'd off but seem like I'm trapped. Anyone any suggestions other than walking away from 35yrs of toIl with nothing but what seems like the clothes on my back

Read these threads on Propietary Estoppel, its a way of getting what you are entitled too. Many people have walked your road. Me as well.
Then get advice , from somewhere a long way from home.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?search/234843/&q=Proprietary+estoppel&o=date

Cowcorn · Nov 12, 2019

fov63 said:
Never a truer word spoken (typed) I find myself in the position of being mid 50's wife - two children etc with absolutely nothing behind me. No house or vehicle in my name, No current control on Farm decisions / finance. Brief history - born into family farm, father not interested in farming just the cash. Started ploughing, drilling and combine driving from age of 11 and things seemed better once I left school. However carrot dangled several times to ensure I stayed at home and worked but nothing ever materialised. I was taken on as a partner but Father was fiddling the books (as we had a lot of cash crops) so my share in Farm never grew. When I wanted to leave he threatened with hell fire and damnation and every court in the country, so leaving would financially ruin me. He will not retire nor step aside nor disclose whats in his Will so I could be working my nuts off for nothing. - Any young person going into family farming business please make sure you can trust your peers!!

Fucck me it gets worse, thats a terrible way to be caught when you have a family to support fov. Might i suggest a solution used by a man in the same iron grip of elderly tight parents over here . He started flogging the odd load of lambs to a dealer for cash when he realised his father was to blind to notice and tipping a few load of grain at another merchant unknown to his father . Needs must......
Another case i remember when growing up involved a man who literally hadnt the handling of sixpence finally inheriting the small farm and stack of cash generated by generations of misery at about sixty years of age .. He promptly took to the beer and the women at a ferocious rate until he had everything gone . My father remarked that it was poetic justice " the hard gathering will get the wild scattering "

fredf · Nov 12, 2019

J 1177 said:
I was lucky that I was made partner in the business at 22 and my dad tried to push on but when I got to my mid 20s he got very negative about things and wouldn't discuss anything 're pushing the farm on.
In my early 30s , his mid 60s he was diagnosed with a form of Parkinson's that the doctors said would affect his mood (and had been doing so for years).
He got better and tried to help me push on. Sadly he got lung cancer and after a short illness died.
He set me up the best he could and it wasn't his fault but I found it incredibly frustrating when i diddnt know he had Parkinson's .
I'm 36 now and farming with my mother, it's not easy but we plod on I just wish he hadn't had to have that bloody illnesses

I think you will manage very well with your Mother then your wife in the future.

Tom

The Son · Nov 12, 2019

Spud said:
I was lucky - father wanted better for me than he had.

Grandpa died in 86 when I was 9, and dad was 35. (Gpa was 63)

Dad bought grandma out of the business three years later, when he had the opportunity to move to a bigger farm on the estate, where I farm now.

The farm size had virtually trebled. I was keen (12yo) and had had a fair bit of chance at things, particularly after grandpa died. We had nowt. In 92 a big fire kicked the seven bells out of dad financially, but he had the grit and determination to bray on regardless - something for which I still today tremendously respect him for.

I left school in summer 93, and came home - a time that coincided with dads one staff member went off to college.

Sept 94 I went to college for 3 yrs, the middle 15months living and working away from home - great experience, renewed perspective

I came home summer 97 - initially I planned on working away from home for a bit, but the man working here got into a bad way personally, and moved away, so I grasped the opportunity and came home.

Dad bought his first truck in late 92, so was away a bit on that, which naturally put day to day responsibility on my shoulders - a trend that continued.

I was keen (still am) and put a lot of hours in - I was paid like any other member of staff, but had to pay mum board, and my own bills - there was no hand outs - which taught me about cost and value.

Dads brother always sailed his own ship, and it quickly became apparent that my brother and I weren't compatible at work either - dad saw this early on (brother was made redundant elsewhere and came home for a bit when he was about 18) Dad helped him set up his lime spreading business when its then proprietor wanted to sell up and move away. (brother having worked for him part time for a while)

As things developed, the spuds and transport both expanded, we found that divided responsibilities worked best for us.

I made the day to day decisions on the spuds, dad the transport. If big investments or decisions were required, we'd do our respective homework, and consult the other. If said other had an opposite opinion, then it was taken on board, but the decision was taken and responsibility taken for it by he who's enterprise it was for. If that meant going against the other partner, that was fine, and reciprocated - I respected dads veiw (and he mine) but didn't always agree with it! We were fortunate that the respect between us meant that "I told you so's" were rare.

The smaller enterprises take less running - dad loved the beet, so we tended to go with his desires there. Machinery wasn't really his barrow, so I mad emost of the decisions in that regard, though often I'd ask for his input. Regularly, I'd ask him to come look at something and give a veiw - to say I miss that wisdom is an understatement! I did the spraying, he ran the dryer and did a fair bit of forklift work. We both did stock work and had a shared frustration of assurance schemes (of which there are umpteen)

Dad made me a partner in the business at 27 - with a salary (I had a mortgage to pay!) and profit share - the level of which decided by the responsibility taken by each partner - I set off at 10% and it built to 50%. This gave me focus on the financials, and a grasp of reality, without pushing dad out. My profit share allowed my share of the business to grow - I initially also put my car in as collateral, then some of the proceeds of my house sale. Dad still owned the majority of the business, and I've grown my share via my own graft - as I said, there were no handouts. For all we took responsibility for our own enterprises, financially all ran under the same umbrella - we accepted that every enterprise has good years and crap years - there was no point making the accountant richer seperating everything!!

I was fortunate to become joint tenant at 29 - dad at that time being 55. Dad had the foresight to realise that to keep laying concrete and building sheds on the landlords property, we needed years beyond his working life to justify them - something that has made things easier now he's no longer here.

We fell out - we were very alike in many ways - but (thankfully) were able to 'get it said and let it go' - this happened more when dad passing 60 coincided with reduced profitability in the business, and declining health on his part, all of which shortened tempers at times.

Dad died at only 66 years old in March 2018, and I am proud to say that there was nothing left unsaid between us - for all we could argue, we had a mutual love and respect for oneanother. I learnt a lot from the old man, he was very well thought of, and I'm proud to follow in his footsteps.

Your once a man, and twice a boy in this farming life - on a arable farm, as a lad you set off with simple tractoring, cultivating, rolling and carting, then eventually you graduate to drilling, combining and spraying, finishing up running the dryer and doing paperwork. I guess I'm now the lad again then! (Clinging to the wreckage (Terry Wogan reference) by also doing the spraying).

I'll never forget some of dads last words to me, a week or so before he passed away:

"Well ord lad" (He never called me ord lad) "You're going to have to find someone else to bounce your daft ideas off now, cos I'm not going to be about much longer" "I might of been a moaning old bugger at times, but when you change summat, you generally do it for the right reasons, and if you fudge it up, you generally learn from it, so I can't complain too much"

That was as near to getting a compliment as I was going to get!!!!

The chat went on a good while, reminiscing and appreciating each other's efforts, and surmising what future years might bring. He'd do nowt different if he had his time again, I'm sure.

The hardest thing I have ever done in my life, was to deliver his eulogy, but boy, I'm glad I did.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that life is short.
The wisdom of experience and energy of youth are both important, and can be very compatible.
Patience is the most vital ingredient - from both sides
With responsibility comes consequence - don't expect to grasp the reins without accepting an equal amount of risk and responsibility, both physical and financial.
Talk openly, back your ideas up with proper researched figures, listen to feedback. Be realistic. If you get stonewalled, leave it a bit, allow the other party to think, ask them how they think your idea could be improved.
Remember that senior family members will no doubt of been in your shoes at some point in the past.
Find yourself a mentor - someone that can see both sides - I've been lucky to have a few over the years - people that will tell me what I need to hear, not what I want to hear.
Don't take anything too personally - sometimes people say things they don't mean in arguements.

Take the long view, continue to show resilience - it will come good in the end.

Good luck

Spud

What a fantastic post, and nice to read a positive one in this thread.
My son is 21 and starting to come back into the business gradually, I worry greatly as we are only a small family farm, but we have a plan in place, agreed with him, my wife and I and the accountant so we have done as much as we can at the moment.
I think that your method of having defined roles and responsibilities is vital, and one that we hope to emulate.
If my son can write such a positive post about me when i am on my deathbed, then I will think I have succeded!

icanshootwell · Nov 12, 2019

fov63 said:
Never a truer word spoken (typed) I find myself in the position of being mid 50's wife - two children etc with absolutely nothing behind me. No house or vehicle in my name, No current control on Farm decisions / finance. Brief history - born into family farm, father not interested in farming just the cash. Started ploughing, drilling and combine driving from age of 11 and things seemed better once I left school. However carrot dangled several times to ensure I stayed at home and worked but nothing ever materialised. I was taken on as a partner but Father was fiddling the books (as we had a lot of cash crops) so my share in Farm never grew. When I wanted to leave he threatened with hell fire and damnation and every court in the country, so leaving would financially ruin me. He will not retire nor step aside nor disclose whats in his Will so I could be working my nuts off for nothing. - Any young person going into family farming business please make sure you can trust your peers!!

Bloody hell, i thought my old man was bad enough, yours win 1st prize.
What is it with there f ing wills they want to keep so secret, it reminds me of the Egypt 5000 years ago, taking there gold to the after life. I decided my kids will know where they stand when they leave school, that way every body is on the same page.

Blaithin · Nov 12, 2019

2wheels said:
sorry to hear of your problems, us old buggers can be bloody awkward but also try to remember that most of us end up being like our parents.

That’s comforting. Thanks.

Northeastfarmer · Nov 12, 2019

moral of the story...don’t work with family

Spud · Nov 12, 2019

Northeastfarmer said:
moral of the story...don’t work with family

No - don't work with those incompatible with oneself.

We had a fairly relaxed carry on, but still had a partnership agreement. We both knew the plan. We both had similar drive for our respective responsibilities. Similar attitude to investments. Generally knew what the others opinion on a particular issue would be.
If I hadn't seen a future here, I'd of gone off to find one elsewhere, life is too short.
I'm the first to admit that I've been very fortunate. Dad's parents didn't have the foresight that he had.

icanshootwell · Nov 13, 2019

Spud said:
No - don't work with those incompatible with oneself.

We had a fairly relaxed carry on, but still had a partnership agreement. We both knew the plan. We both had similar drive for our respective responsibilities. Similar attitude to investments. Generally knew what the others opinion on a particular issue would be.
If I hadn't seen a future here, I'd of gone off to find one elsewhere, life is too short.
I'm the first to admit that I've been very fortunate. Dad's parents didn't have the foresight that he had.

Thats very true but a lot realize life,s to short when there middle aged and worked for peanuts for 25-30 years. You can find yourself having working like a dog at 50 and have no savings to your name, the saying between a rock and a hard place springs to mind.

Spud · Nov 13, 2019

icanshootwell said:
Thats very true but a lot realize life,s to short when there middle aged and worked for peanuts for 25-30 years. You can find yourself having working like a dog at 50 and have no savings to your name, the saying between a rock and a hard place springs to mind.

Yes I've seen that too, and struggle to understand why people do it tbh.

Fine, take a relatively peppercorn drawing to help the business develop, but if you're not taking a profit share (when there is profit made) on paper, ie building your own net worth, why bother?
It provides clarity, motivation and structure, and is fair to non farming siblings too.

Lincsman · Nov 13, 2019

Forage Trader said:
EU farming at its best

Farmers dont make the rules, just work with them.

2wheels · Nov 13, 2019

Blaithin said:
That’s comforting. Thanks.

no problem always happy to help.

i.m sure you have seen the error of your mother's ways and will make sure you don't turn out like her.

Two Tone · Nov 13, 2019

Trust is the absolutely most vital thing in any family farm. As all family members leave education, they should be made equal partners in the business as they join it and work on it. Nobody should have a deciding or majority vote and all should be fully aware of the exact financial position of the business at all times.
In this way, all will feel more responsibility towards and will therefore act more responsibly for it.

However, this is of the business and not ownership of the land and fixed assets. These also need addressing responsibly or the whole thing risks falling apart.

Get and take good advice from a good business lawyer to get it right, keep it up to date and prevent future IHT problems from happening.

Where it can go horribly wrong is where not all partners are aware of the financial situation of the business.
This can happen more in a Farm Manager situation where the manager is not being told the truth or being deliberately lied to.
If the business is a Limited liability company, this can easily be discovered by looking at the accounts registered at Companies House. In most cases, even these are showing far worse situation than are the reality for good tax avoidance reasons. The only way round this is to insist on seeing the management accounts to get the true picture.
This can also apply to all family member directors of Limited Co family farms.

Spud · Nov 13, 2019

Two Tone said:
As all family members leave education, they should be made equal partners in the business as they join it and work on it.

Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with this.
Why?
Shares in a business should be earned, not given.
Teenagers need to be teenagers, earn money, learn stuff, live life and do daft things.
It isn't good for teenager, business or existing partners for big responsibility to be passed too early, imo.
My share has built mostly via my leaving my profit share in the business - which in itself is dictated by the level of responsibility I've taken over the years.
Effort and commitment should be rewarded, slack buggers should not.

MrNoo · Nov 13, 2019

Spud said:
Yes I've seen that too, and struggle to understand why people do it tbh.

Fine, take a relatively peppercorn drawing to help the business develop, but if you're not taking a profit share (when there is profit made) on paper, ie building your own net worth, why bother?
It provides clarity, motivation and structure, and is fair to non farming siblings too.

The trouble being if in debt it just takes longer to pay off if you're paying yourself a slice of the profits. Time ticks by so very quickly and before you know it life has passed you by.
My step mother gleefully told me the other day on the phone that I would be 56 before I was debt free!! Now she just ignores me completely.
We do farm as a Ltd Co and I do have shares so maybe upon reflection it's not all bad.

Cowcorn · Nov 13, 2019

MrNoo said:
The trouble being if in debt it just takes longer to pay off if you're paying yourself a slice of the profits. Time ticks by so very quickly and before you know it life has passed you by.
My step mother gleefully told me the other day on the phone that I would be 56 before I was debt free!! Now she just ignores me completely.
We do farm as a Ltd Co and I do have shares so maybe upon reflection it's not all bad.

I hope your shares are backed with assets Mr Noo, that step witch sounds like a right handful and is sure to give you trouble in the future . Dont let the debt get you down to much debt is like banks you cant really avoid it even when you think youre nearly free something else will come along and you plunge in again !! This place was always up to its tits in debt with various land purchases and more lately a new dairy unit . We will shortly start to descend from the current dizzy heights of debt and it will come as a bit of a relief not to be constantly juggling the bills . Mind you no matter what i always drew sufficent funds to fund a reasonable standard of living . You have too have some reward as you said time flies and you will be dead long enough !! As i get older im getting to realise my father was probably right when he claimed that " pressure was for tyres and worrying was best left to the bank manager there was no point in two doing it " . Hope everything comes together.

Family farms - how do you cope?

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