3085 MF hydraulic question.

[tinman]

A distant neighbour of mine has a 2wd 3085 MF that he uses as a raking tractor in the summer, when he's folding up the trailed rake its somewhat slow and he was wondering if it was possible to speed things up slightly, not at the charge of the light brigade or anything just a bit quicker is all.
its faster on the more modern tractors they have so its not the rake's fault.

They changed the pump thinking it might be getting tired but it wasn't at fault.
now i dont know much about them tbh but I do know its an open center hydraulic system (bosch tandem pump) and im somewhat aware its not the highest lpm at the best of times but my question is, has anyone ever modified or changed the pump for one out of another model that would up the lpm a bit or is there something he's missed?

They arent short of tractors and hes not for selling this one as they like it for raking, he was just wondering if there might of been some form of a solution to the problem.
i said id ask here that someone else might of had a similar problem and solved it, I/He would appreciate any constructive answers if there even was one, it may be a case of having to live with it.

 

[Cowabunga]

On the extreme right of the spool block there may be an adjustable dial that is a flow splitter. This slows the oil to the spools. Can't remember whether it just does one spool or splits oil between the spools and the links. Anyhow, its worth a look to see that it is adjusted for maximum flow. The tractor may not have this splitter fitted though.

Next is to investigate the QR coupler. The female, since the rake works fine on other tractors. First port of call here is to try an alternative coupler. If that works fine, then your original coupler is faulty, possibly with a shortened nose or a displaced inner seal. If not, then suspect that the male fitted to the rake is incompatible with the females fitted to the tractor. I had some original NH males that would only work with my NH or Ford many years ago. They were useless in a mixed fleet and had to be binned.

 

[tinman]

Cheers.
I didn't see a splitter fitted when I was chatting to him, I wasn't paying much attention to the spool valve but did see on the rhs where the pressure pipe went in to the block on its own but it basically went into a end plate on the block.

The couplings I'll mention to him to check out when he has her back together as right now she is sitting with the hyd pump off to see if this problem can be resolved.

Is the lpm of the pump slow at the best of times or we're they a fast enough hyd system?
Did I read right last night that the flow of them is about 50lpm? .

 

[masseybreaker]

you can change the drive gear and the gear that drives the drive gear from a 6100 series that will speed it up a bit but it will still be slow against any modern tractor it is 30 years old they were all slow to modern standards

 

[Cowabunga]

Cheers.
I didn't see a splitter fitted when I was chatting to him, I wasn't paying much attention to the spool valve but did see on the rhs where the pressure pipe went in to the block on its own but it basically went into a end plate on the block.

The couplings I'll mention to him to check out when he has her back together as right now she is sitting with the hyd pump off to see if this problem can be resolved.

Is the lpm of the pump slow at the best of times or we're they a fast enough hyd system?
Did I read right last night that the flow of them is about 50lpm? .

60 litres per minute just like most tractor gear pumps and even current standard open centre MF tractors.

Gear pumps have a fixed displacement of course. This means that for every revolution of the pump, connected to the engine, a set amount of oil is pumped. That means that at 1000 rpm, only half the oil is pumped compared to at 2000rpm, which should always be kept in mind.
This is very different to a variable displacement piston pump, fitted to closed centre systems with the ccls pump, which opens itself up to provide near maximum flow at low revs and is independently governed.

What that means in practice is 13gallons per minute at 2200 but only 6gpm at 1000 engine revs, assuming that the pump is not worn.

 

[tr250]

We had a 3065 till last year and thought the flow was good for it’s time not fast by modern standards but would tip a 14 ton grain trailer quick enough. Look at the levers under the console ours came loose so the lever wouldn’t fully engage

 

[davedb]

you can change the drive gear and the gear that drives the drive gear from a 6100 series that will speed it up a bit but it will still be slow against any modern tractor it is 30 years old they were all slow to modern standards

Can you do this with a 3630? My old girl is steady on the hydraulics even after a new pump

 

[masseybreaker]

sorry no same gear on the end of the pump through the range all the way to open center 8100

 

[davedb]

sorry no same gear on the end of the pump through the range all the way to open center 8100

Yea I woundered if it would be, I wounder if a bigger pump could be made to fit instead

 

[masseybreaker]

everything is possible but its how much brain strain you want and also if the rest of the system can stand more flow orbitol units etc

 

[Cowabunga]

Some models from 2004 onwards have the option of two gear pumps. This can be in various configurations depending on model and age. I strongly suspect It would be uneconomic to convert a single pump unit to a dual pump 100lpm system.

 

[tinman]

Yea I woundered if it would be, I wounder if a bigger pump could be made to fit instead

everything is possible but its how much brain strain you want and also if the rest of the system can stand more flow orbitol units etc

this is something i was considering, ill chat to someone tomorrow if i get the time to see if one can be made up, its doubtful enough id say going by the way the tandem pump works on them and as you say @masseybreaker the hyd system may not handle the greater flow without doing harm further down the line.

he had two pumps there, one off her and another the same but he dosent know where it came from or off.
thing is, the one thats off her has a smaller hole than the other one but both are similar in size bar the fact that the flange holes for the suction pipe are different, what was the plan there or what was it off.

 

[Mur Huwcun]

I find it hard to believe that it’s the pump fault for a rake being slow to fold up. Most twin rotors are only piped up with 1/4” hoses anyhow which the old 3000 can supply a lot more oil than they can carry. As mentioned has any one checked the flow tap, the quick release couplings and travel of the spool etc.

 

[Cowabunga]

I find it hard to believe that it’s the pump fault for a rake being slow to fold up. Most twin rotors are only piped up with 1/4” hoses anyhow which the old 3000 can supply a lot more oil than they can carry. As mentioned has any one checked the flow tap, the quick release couplings and travel of the spool etc.

Yes, only a small hose generally, plus a restrictor in the line to moderate the flow further.
Surely the owner has tried one of the other female QR couplings on the tractor and done some basic investigation off their own bat?

 

[tinman]

he wouldn't be slow like that but ill confirm it with him.
ill pass on any of the info and tips thats been posted here which might help.
he's tried it on other tractors and they fold up at a good speed.
from a bit of googling i see a few sites including tractordata stating that the hydraulics of that model is 50lpm.

 

[e3120]

You could do a bit of sleuthing with a clean 2 gallon bucket and a stopwatch, ideally using the hose off the rake.

 

[Mrs Brown]

Have you checked the pressure from spool valve . There is a relief valve fitted externally on the side cover that might be bypassing a lot of oil especially if there is a restrictor on its way to the rake.

 

[Cowabunga]

he wouldn't be slow like that but ill confirm it with him.
ill pass on any of the info and tips thats been posted here which might help.
he's tried it on other tractors and they fold up at a good speed.
from a bit of googling i see a few sites including tractordata stating that the hydraulics of that model is 50lpm.

11 gallons a minute more or less. Should be enough to slam the rotors of a twin rotor rake up dangerously fast given unrestricted plumbing and everything working properly. Which is why restrictors are normally fitted in the line from the tractor.

 

[davedb]

this is something i was considering, ill chat to someone tomorrow if i get the time to see if one can be made up, its doubtful enough id say going by the way the tandem pump works on them and as you say @masseybreaker the hyd system may not handle the greater flow without doing harm further down the line.

he had two pumps there, one off her and another the same but he dosent know where it came from or off.
thing is, the one thats off her has a smaller hole than the other one but both are similar in size bar the fact that the flange holes for the suction pipe are different, what was the plan there or what was it off.

That should be vastly better than my old 3630 as mine only has a single pump, one of your pumps does the steering 4wd ect and the other does the lift arms and spools if I remember right

 

[tinman]

That should be vastly better than my old 3630 as mine only has a single pump, one of your pumps does the steering 4wd ect and the other does the lift arms and spools if I remember right

Yes, the front (main hyd) is 19cc and the back is 11cc per rev.