AHL2 - Winter Bird Food

[Blue charm]

Some very interesting and useful comments on this thread thanks. I think the WB AHL2-NUM3 WW is probably the most logical option, if you can make it work with the online application system.
I can see the concern about the flowering element of AHL2, but if you are confident that the plants are going to produce a seed for winter then you must have achieved the flowering aspect. We know for a seed to develop in most flowering plants a flower and pollinator is required for pollen to move from stamen to stigma. Likewise if you fail to get the flowering then you’ll probably be failing to provide much seed.
Regarding the wording- I’m not sure where RPA would stand legally if they intended to penalise someone for failing to ‘encourage’ something. I will 100% be encouraging our kids to eat their sprouts on 25th but
encourage and outcome are two different things.

 

[Banana Bar]

no answer yet , he said he has asked for a response though

from what i can see there is no reason i can’t do it - the aims of both can be achieved

I have asked Defra about this, it unfortunately will not be permitted.

BB

 

[James Ream]

I have asked Defra about this, it unfortunately will not be permitted.

BB

How did you manage to get a response on this? I’ve sent numerous emails/phone calls etc and not had a definitive yes/no. Have you got an email or similar saying categorically it can’t be done?

 

[Try to succeed]

I have asked Defra about this, it unfortunately will not be permitted.

BB

Hi @Banana Bar

How did you ask about it? Can you share any response? It’s currently permitted on the system if applying at the right time. I’ve not had any response to say no when I’ve asked various things. No matter the question, their answer is ‘as long as the aim has been achieved’.

 

[James Ream]

Hi @Banana Bar

How did you ask about it? Can you share any response? It’s currently permitted on the system if applying at the right time. I’ve not had any response to say no when I’ve asked various things. No matter the question, their answer is ‘as long as the aim has been achieved’.

Ditto

 

[Hindsight]

The Guidance document in the link on page 74 of the version 3 SFI handbook does state seeds best sown usually between March and June, similar wording to the more prescriptive Mid Tier AB9 specification. Take a look. This post WInter Barley or Wheat will be mid July at earliest, unless undersown prior to harvest.

How to do the SFI actions for farmland wildlife on arable and horticultural land

Find out how you could do the SFI actions for farmland wildlife on arable and horticultural land.

www.gov.uk

 

[Blue charm]

The Guidance document in the link on page 74 of the version 3 SFI handbook does state seeds best sown usually between March and June, similar wording to the more prescriptive Mid Tier AB9 specification. Take a look. This post WInter Barley or Wheat will be mid July at earliest, unless undersown prior to harvest.

How to do the SFI actions for farmland wildlife on arable and horticultural land

Find out how you could do the SFI actions for farmland wildlife on arable and horticultural land.

www.gov.uk

It’s guidance that you do not have to follow. It may be that RPA make guidance like this mandatory if they feel the loose requirements are being exploited, but for now you can’t be penalised for not following it.

 

[Blue charm]

In CS/HLS you get agreements with option requirements and you follow what’s in your agreement. with SFI you get an agreement just stating the options and areas included, and you follow the option requirements stated online. its fair to assume the requirements are likely to change over time

 

[Banana Bar]

How did you manage to get a response on this? I’ve sent numerous emails/phone calls etc and not had a definitive yes/no. Have you got an email or similar saying categorically it can’t be done?

Yes I have, had a response in 4 or 5 days.

 

[James Ream]

Yes I have, had a response in 4 or 5 days.

Hi BB

Thank you for this
Are you happy to share the wording of your question that this answer relates to? Did you specify that the the two different options are on different parcels within the scheme years? The guidance does clearly state that they are not compatible together in the same year, which is what the answer you have mirrors, but you would not be declaring them on the same parcel in your application/annual declaration.

 

[Banana Bar]

Hi BB

Thank you for this
Are you happy to share the wording of your question that this answer relates to? Did you specify that the the two different options are on different parcels within the scheme years? The guidance does clearly state that they are not compatible together in the same year, which is what the answer you have mirrors, but you would not be declaring them on the same parcel in your application/annual declaration.

I asked what Clive has been suggesting, AHL2 following WB, destroy end Feb and then NUM3 on same plot until autumn drilled cereal. Perhaps I misunderstood the question?

BB

 

[Hindsight]

Yes I have, had a response in 4 or 5 days.

Hi BB

Thank you for this
Are you happy to share the wording of your question that this answer relates to? Did you specify that the the two different options are on different parcels within the scheme years? The guidance does clearly state that they are not compatible together in the same year, which is what the answer you have mirrors, but you would not be declaring them on the same parcel in your application/annual declaration.

Hi both of you. I think there are two questions to ask for clarification, as follows:

Question 1

I have a general enquiry about sequencing around AHL2 (Winter Bird Food). Is the following sequence of land use/cropping acceptable:

Winter Barley or another crop such as Vining Peas or forage Rye harvested in July then followed by AHL2 established in July, then removed after end of SFI Winter period, so March 1st onward sown with a crop – for example Spring Barley, Sugar Beet, etc. Thus, would be a Winter Barley sown October 2023, harvested July 2024, followed by AHL2 sown July 2024 and retained through the Winter Period to provide seeds. The AHL2 would then be removed after February 28th 2025 and the land placed in a crop.


Question 2

I have a general enquiry about sequencing around AHL2 (Winter Bird Food). Is the following sequence of land use/cropping acceptable:

Winter Barley or another crop such as Vining Peas or forage Rye harvested in July then followed by AHL2 established in July and then removed after end of SFI Winter period, so March 1st onward then entered as NUM3.

 

[Banana Bar]

Hi both of you. I think there are two questions to ask for clarification, as follows:

Question 1

I have a general enquiry about sequencing around AHL2 (Winter Bird Food). Is the following sequence of land use/cropping acceptable:

Winter Barley or another crop such as Vining Peas or forage Rye harvested in July then followed by AHL2 established in July, then removed after end of SFI Winter period, so March 1st onward sown with a crop – for example Spring Barley, Sugar Beet, etc. Thus, would be a Winter Barley sown October 2023, harvested July 2024, followed by AHL2 sown July 2024 and retained through the Winter Period to provide seeds. The AHL2 would then be removed after February 28th 2025 and the land placed in a crop.


Question 2

I have a general enquiry about sequencing around AHL2 (Winter Bird Food). Is the following sequence of land use/cropping acceptable:

Winter Barley or another crop such as Vining Peas or forage Rye harvested in July then followed by AHL2 established in July and then removed after end of SFI Winter period, so March 1st onward then entered as NUM3.

In not so many words that is what I asked. The first question got the stock response that it needed to fulfill the requirements as set out, in my view that can be done. The second question got a firm no.

 

[Try to succeed]

Thanks for posting that banana bar. From that I’m happy continuing as I plan to as they’re just referring to not being compatible in the same scheme year. It just shows the importance of choosing your start date appropriately. It is irrelevant to the scheme what you’re following your AHL2 with as long as you’ve already satisfied the aims and got it to its end date. I think we’re all looking into it a bit too hard now.

 

[Hornet]

Thanks for posting that banana bar. From that I’m happy continuing as I plan to as they’re just referring to not being compatible in the same scheme year. It just shows the importance of choosing your start date appropriately. It is irrelevant to the scheme what you’re following your AHL2 with as long as you’ve already satisfied the aims and got it to its end date. I think we’re all looking into it a bit too hard now.

Agree. what is pertinent to all this, is that deciding on the right start date is vital for every individual business.

Starting in feb might be right for AHL2/NUM3. But it might not be for IPM4, because the chances of being insecticide free on say NUM3 and then a winter cereal will be much less

I've yet to ascertain if you can do different agreements, with different SFI actions, at different start times, on the same parcels

 

[Nitrams]

It would make morw sense if ahl2 had the summer pollinators aspect removed and perhaps made into its own seperate option. Reduce the ahl2 payment to £500/ha and combine it with overwinter cover crop requirements. This way meeting cc requirements and overwinter feeding of birds with the option to plant a spring cash crop if you have a viable option. I think this would be a popular route.

 

[Hornet]

It would make morw sense if ahl2 had the summer pollinators aspect removed and perhaps made into its own seperate option. Reduce the ahl2 payment to £500/ha and combine it with overwinter cover crop requirements. This way meeting cc requirements and overwinter feeding of birds with the option to plant a spring cash crop if you have a viable option. I think this would be a popular route.

indeed so. But in an ideal world DEFRA wouldnt want all bird food sown in july.

 

[Clive]

I asked what Clive has been suggesting, AHL2 following WB, destroy end Feb and then NUM3 on same plot until autumn drilled cereal. Perhaps I misunderstood the question?

BB

it’s definitely not compatible on the same parcel in the same year, that’s always been clear

but still nothing that prevents it being on different parcels over different agreement years as far as i can see

agreement start date key here ? i actually think your response confirms my plan is ok

 

[Banana Bar]

it’s definitely not compatible on the same parcel in the same year, that’s always been clear

but still nothing that prevents it being on different parcels over different agreement years as far as i can see

agreement start date key here ? i actually think your response confirms my plan is ok

Yes, I misunderstood. Agreement year that starts on 1st March would mean AHL2 in yr 1 and NUM3 in yr 2 albeit on same field in same CROPPING year, is that correct?

BB

 

[Clive]

Yes, I misunderstood. Agreement year that starts on 1st March would mean AHL2 in yr 1 and NUM3 in yr 2 albeit on same field in same CROPPING year, is that correct?

BB

yes