Andrew Ward's Drill Demo Day

[Alistair Nelson]

Situation Vacant - General Farm Worker / Spray Operator East Yorkshire

W L Caley Ltd based near Driffield East Yorkshire is a progressive family farming business growing combinable Crops and Livestock farming outside Driffield (YO25 9JZ). We are seeking an enthusiastic person to join our team. This key role will initially centre on cultivations, spraying and...

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Sorry but what’s your point here?

we put an advert on here 3 + yrs ago looking for someone to join our business and thankfully we got someone who is a real asset to the business.

 

[Huno]

Sorry but what’s your point here?

we put an advert on here 3 + yrs ago looking for someone to join our business and thankfully we got someone who is a real asset to the business.

Glad to hear that.. No point really.. just working out your professional credentials as you understandable wanted to question mine... i still stand by my view that 25 quid a Ha is questionable for cover crops before you pipped in...

 

[Alistair Nelson]

Glad to hear that.. No point really.. just working out your professional credentials as you understandable wanted to question mine... i still stand by my view that 25 quid a Ha is questionable for cover crops before you pipped in...

Strewth what do you think are my credentials then?

 

[Huno]

Strewth so that’s interesting what do you think are credentials then?

Your farm looks like a picture postcard arable rotation from google maps.. that is a complement... good night

 

[snarling bee]

Is it correct you can 'ignore' members of this forum? We had a horse called Huno, no sorry that was Hugo.

 

[James Ream]

Glad to hear that.. No point really.. just working out your professional credentials as you understandable wanted to question mine... i still stand by my view that 25 quid a Ha is questionable for cover crops before you pipped in...

£25/ha is easily achievable if bought as straights, mixed yourself, some HSS costed at commodity value.

 

[Wigeon]

Golly this has all got a bit spicy.

Couple of genuine observations if I may:

I would love to find cover crop seed for £25. Yes I could chuck in some linseed and oats off the heap etc, but those are my spring crops and I don't want to bagger them up. Plus mustard gives me slugs.

Properly drilling them, even if at cost only, must be at least another £40 say? At least it is on hilly ground that eats metal.

No big fan of Mr Ward here, but I certainly salute him in his efforts to an extent. I would be most surprised, however, if there were not attempts, even subconscious ones, from some of the vocal no tillers to influence policy too. Perhaps not quite so overt, but nevertheless probably there.

I perceive some real fear in certain quarters that policy becomes dogmatic. That helps no-one, apart from consultants.

Personally, I'd much rather just crack on with what works, still keep experimenting, and basically just get on with it without being shouted at.

 

[Spud]

Golly this has all got a bit spicy.

Couple of genuine observations if I may:

I would love to find cover crop seed for £25. Yes I could chuck in some linseed and oats off the heap etc, but those are my spring crops and I don't want to bagger them up. Plus mustard gives me slugs.

Properly drilling them, even if at cost only, must be at least another £40 say? At least it is on hilly ground that eats metal.

No big fan of Mr Ward here, but I certainly salute him in his efforts to an extent. I would be most surprised, however, if there were not attempts, even subconscious ones, from some of the vocal no tillers to influence policy too. Perhaps not quite so overt, but nevertheless probably there.

I perceive some real fear in certain quarters that policy becomes dogmatic. That helps no-one, apart from consultants.

Personally, I'd much rather just crack on with what works, still keep experimenting, and basically just get on with it without being shouted at.

40kg/ha Oats off the heap @ £220/t = £8.80
3kg oil radish @ £3.75/kg = £11.25/ha
2kg Phacelia @ £5.20/kg = £10.40

Total £30.45/ha in seed. Drilling costs me about £35/ha so say £65/ha total. £26/ac if you like (it sounds cheaper!!)

We have mixes a bit dearer and a bit cheaper than that, average cost near as makes no difference £30/ac

You don't get owt for nowt. The cost of the seed and drilling has gone up lots in the last year, but the value extracted from them (short and long term) has gone up by at least as much, so I'll bray on.

 

[ajd132]

Golly this has all got a bit spicy.

Couple of genuine observations if I may:

I would love to find cover crop seed for £25. Yes I could chuck in some linseed and oats off the heap etc, but those are my spring crops and I don't want to bagger them up. Plus mustard gives me slugs.

Properly drilling them, even if at cost only, must be at least another £40 say? At least it is on hilly ground that eats metal.

No big fan of Mr Ward here, but I certainly salute him in his efforts to an extent. I would be most surprised, however, if there were not attempts, even subconscious ones, from some of the vocal no tillers to influence policy too. Perhaps not quite so overt, but nevertheless probably there.

I perceive some real fear in certain quarters that policy becomes dogmatic. That helps no-one, apart from consultants.

Personally, I'd much rather just crack on with what works, still keep experimenting, and basically just get on with it without being shouted at.

Il just broadcast them when I do my shallow cultivation for spring crops.
My mix has linseed in granted, the other 3 aren’t possible cash crops though.
You just need to be abit more creative than letting someone sell you a fancy mix for £70/ha allowing a rogering.
agree re mustard, found that out a while ago.

We have been doing cover crops for years now, long before SFI etc.
If they want to give me money for doing it then that’s great, if not then I’m not worried.
Like you, I want to remain flexible.

quite alot of nonsense being spouted among the ‘regen’ fraternity these days that isn’t backed up. Is it basically all these people trying really hard to influence things NEED the extra money to keep going?

 

[alomy75]

Just watched wardy’s waffle video about the yielded results of his trial; not sure if he’s already posted them somewhere but I hadn’t seen them. Quite interesting to be fair…Claydon and Aitchison struggled; rest were much of a muchness with, maybe predictably, the freeflow coming out on top. That aside; interesting that raking improved plant populations nearly across the board. Pleased I bought a rake now!

 

[SilliamWhale]

Just watched wardy’s waffle video about the yielded results of his trial; not sure if he’s already posted them somewhere but I hadn’t seen them. Quite interesting to be fair…Claydon and Aitchison struggled; rest were much of a muchness with, maybe predictably, the freeflow coming out on top. That aside; interesting that raking improved plant populations nearly across the board. Pleased I bought a rake now!

He didn't have the plant populations. If you don't have the plant populations you are wasting your time with the rest of the analysis at any level. Its a fundamental issue

There is nothing special about direct drilling - the plant doesn't know or care what machine it has been sown with.

 

[ajd132]

He didn't have the plant populations. If you don't have the plant populations you are wasting your time with the rest of the analysis at any level. Its a fundamental issue

There is nothing special about direct drilling - the plant doesn't know or care what machine it has been sown with.

Agree, it’s pointless comparing drills.
What it does show, which I’ve also found on heavy land that in SOME years in order to get plant population for spring barley it can benefit from more soil movement. Preferably done the summer before.

shallow cult + cover crop broadcast at the same time is what we have gone back to doing after some inconsistency true direct drilling for spring barley.

 

[Daniel]

He didn't have the plant populations. If you don't have the plant populations you are wasting your time with the rest of the analysis at any level. Its a fundamental issue

There is nothing special about direct drilling - the plant doesn't know or care what machine it has been sown with.

My wheat knows it’s been sown with a Claydon and that Jeff cares for every one of them.

 

[alomy75]

He didn't have the plant populations. If you don't have the plant populations you are wasting your time with the rest of the analysis at any level. Its a fundamental issue

There is nothing special about direct drilling - the plant doesn't know or care what machine it has been sown with.

Agree about the plant populations but not about the drill choice; I’ve seen an aitchison drilling beans once down the road from me. It was too wet (as per this trial) and in places i could have picked the beans back out of the ground with a pair of pliers without touching any soil; they were sat on a smeared base in a smeared slot. However a narrower tine or a disc could potentially get a little bit more soil around the seed and give it a better chance. As per the results of this trial. It’s an example with a lot of caveats but saying that every single direct drill will give you the same results is a little blazé in my opinion. On the day in his conditions there were clearly some drills that performed better than others.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Agree about the plant populations but not about the drill choice; I’ve seen an aitchison drilling beans once down the road from me. It was too wet (as per this trial) and in places i could have picked the beans back out of the ground with a pair of pliers without touching any soil; they were sat on a smeared base in a smeared slot. However a narrower tine or a disc could potentially get a little bit more soil around the seed and give it a better chance. As per the results of this trial. It’s an example with a lot of caveats but saying that every single direct drill will give you the same results is a little blazé in my opinion. On the day in his conditions there were clearly some drills that performed better than others.

But the drill you have is the drill you have. A drill has to get enough plants in the ground on your chosen day. All those drills in the trial are "capable" no till drills and for example a Vaddy Rapid or a Sprinter/ pronto is not a capable enough no till drill and is not marketed as such

If that means you need to wait for slightly dryer day for your aitchison or get some chains to pull soil over or roll it etc then so be it. Another day if may be just the job . Lots of farms wouldn't need to plough or cultivate were it not for the fact that they didn't have a drill capable of doing no till but no one expects that to do a job in substandard condtions so why expect a direct drill to?

I've used a 750 for 20 years and I like it. But its not to say I couldn't learn the skills to make most no till drills work on my land

 

[alomy75]

But the drill you have is the drill you have. A drill has to get enough plants in the ground on your chosen day. All those drills in the trial are "capable" no till drills and for example a Vaddy Rapid or a Sprinter/ pronto is not a capable enough no till drill and is not marketed as such

If that means you need to wait for slightly dryer day for your aitchison or get some chains to pull soil over or roll it etc then so be it. Another day if may be just the job . Lots of farms wouldn't need to plough or cultivate were it not for the fact that they didn't have a drill capable of doing no till but no one expects that to do a job in substandard condtions so why expect a direct drill to?

I've used a 750 for 20 years and I like it. But its not to say I couldn't learn the skills to make most no till drills work on my land

True but many like me would do a lot of research before taking the plunge; research like this trial; TFF in general. Popularity is usually a good sign; as is resale value; your 750 being a good example. If they were no good they wouldn’t hold their money.
I’m sure you just meant pronto and not a sprinter but you’ve got me wondering; anyone know what happened to the sprinter he was going to try but it turned up late or something? I’m assuming the Horsch on his graph was the avatar

 

[SilliamWhale]

True but many like me would do a lot of research before taking the plunge; research like this trial; TFF in general. Popularity is usually a good sign; as is resale value; your 750 being a good example. If they were no good they wouldn’t hold their money.
I’m sure you just meant pronto and not a sprinter but you’ve got me wondering; anyone know what happened to the sprinter he was going to try but it turned up late or something? I’m assuming the Horsch on his graph was the avatar

I don't know what Horsch was on the graph but I know enough to say that all this trial shows is the limitations of drilling on a day when its not suitable! The Aitchison is a perfectly good direct drill, plenty of people get on well with them.

 

[alomy75]

I don't know what Horsch was on the graph but I know enough to say that all this trial shows is the limitations of drilling on a day when its not suitable! The Aitchison is a perfectly good direct drill, plenty of people get on well with them.

Whilst I do agree completely this trial was poorly timed it does reflect that sometimes the envelope has to be pushed to a certain extent. If a drill will perform in horrific conditions then it should perform faultlessly when conditions are good. Even if ‘perform’ simply means it can move along without bunging up and blocking coulters.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Whilst I do agree completely this trial was poorly timed it does reflect that sometimes the envelope has to be pushed to a certain extent. If a drill will perform in horrific conditions then it should perform faultlessly when conditions are good. Even if ‘perform’ simply means it can move along without bunging up and blocking coulters.

Sure we all do things when we are desperate etc. I've drilled in plenty of crappy conditions and sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't - if I'm lucky I congratulate myself on my skill, if it goes wrong I suppose I could blame the lump of metal in the shed I put the seed in with!

But I wouldn't be extrapolating a trial from it...

 

[Clive]

I'm going to contribute my OPINION to this thread, based on nothing more than 15 years of DD experience at reasonable scale across a wide range of combinable crops and having also run a drill trial back in 2014. It is not personal or aimed at Andrew although I'm sure he will assume it is as he's a bit sensitive like that it seems !


NO drill will get you more yield (no till or conventional !). as long as the machine, of whatever colour, can put seed in the ground at pretty much the right depth and rate and cover it with soil the rest is really down to weather, agronomy, soil type, soil quality and some luck !

The TFF drill trial back in 2014 was different in that it was on easier land and most importantly was done in weather conditions that gave consistency and potential for a much better result, as I understand things the Agrii trail weather and soil conditions were poor on the day. I understand when a event has been organised it's difficult to change or cancel but drilling in less than ideal conditions is never going to give consistent result is it

In the TFF trial there was basically no statistically valid difference between any of the drills - ironically the best yield came from a wildcard broadcast spare plot we had on the day !

My advice is choose your no-till drill based on the following criteria ... (no order of importance here really)

• Ability to deal with trash / without blocking
• Build quality, they need to be stronger than drills working into cultivated land IMO
• Price / value for money
• Back-up from dealer and manufacture
• Ease of maintenance / operator use and calibration etc
• Quality of build, paint, welding etc
• Flexibility - number of hoppers to allow options like companions / fertiliser etc
• Likely residual values - important it thing doesn’t work out for you !
• Cost of wearing parts
• Fuel use
• HP requirement
• What you / your operator likes ........ this is important to success !

Drill trails mean nothing, they are interesting and provoke great discussion and are great sales opportunities for distribution and drill manufacturers but in reality there is a reason we never bothered to repeat the TFF trial


here was harvest day of the TFF drill trial back in 2014 (it's quite boring !) - less drill choice back then and most were what I would call cultivator / one pass rather than true notill so maybe we should do it again ?? ........... just for interest

link to the thread and results back then

TFF Drill Trial?

On the old forum someone, sorry cant remember who did a field comparison on a few of the drills. Think its time for another dance off next Autumn with strip till drills, So Martin, Jeff, Marv and McConnell who's up for a challange?:chicken: We need a suitably located farmer in the UK to offer...

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