But is the real question why this is and for how long it is maintained? Sometimes I think research just concentrates on the result and doesnt look for the reason and the repeatability
Anyone going to Harper Adams University?
- Thread starter SorenIlsoe
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dontknowanything
Member
- Location
- Cambridge
It's been maintained for the best part of a century.
Not sure that is the case now is it? Yields have appeared to have plateaued since the eighties even with ever increasing inputs of chems particularly fungicides without them yields would have almost certainly fallen by now, I'm not saying that ploughing is totally responsible for that situation, I'm sure there are soils where ploughing will always result in higher yields compared to other establishment regimes but yields from a few years are only part of the picture. The point I am trying to make is looking at the wider picture for reasons rather than just a simple result from a trial is important
- Location
- Shropshire
For those who couldn't go, this may be of interest.
http://farmerslivery.org.uk/NR/rdon.../PotentialofNotillReportfinalcopy4October.pdf
http://farmerslivery.org.uk/NR/rdon.../PotentialofNotillReportfinalcopy4October.pdf
- Location
- Nr Malvern... SW Worcestershire
A very useful report on where we have been and where we are at present, but not much on the future. There is a lot of practical knowledge and experience amongst the contributors to this forum which might not be seen as scientifically sound to the academics yet will be the way no-till will go forward in the UK.. In the areas of the world where the technique has really taken off its the man on the ground (the farmer) that has promoted it. Our BASE trip to France proved that there little point in talking about CA/No-till... just get on and do it!
dontknowanything
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- Location
- Cambridge
Yes, it's a literature review. I don't think anyone who reads this forum will have learnt much from it, but it was fairly well written all the same.
- Location
- Shropshire
I think that was the feeling amongst farmers on the day. It was interesting talking to the case study farmers but I don't think anyone who reads this forum would have learnt much.
A significant proportion of the attendees were from the machinery/ag chem supply trade.
The CTF trial plots were drilled with a Vaderstad Spirit drill including the no till plots which is going to compromise the results due to poor establishment vs. the min/max till plots
A significant proportion of the attendees were from the machinery/ag chem supply trade.
The CTF trial plots were drilled with a Vaderstad Spirit drill including the no till plots which is going to compromise the results due to poor establishment vs. the min/max till plots
SilliamWhale
Member
Bit dry I thought. We're ahead of the curve on here anyway.
Vaderstad spirit no till?
What a waste.
dontknowanything
Member
- Location
- Cambridge
It's not meant to be a novel!Bit dry I thought. We're ahead of the curve on here anyway.
Vaderstad spirit no till?
SilliamWhale
Member
Well there were no jokes and I didn't shed one tear. I'd be more excited reading a blog about a bloke taking pictures from Hotel rooms in Hong Kong..
farmideas
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire and West Wales
totally agree with you. No excitement from Prof Leaver, and the soil conf at Cereals was just the same. If the top table can't get enthusiastic, wot hope for the peasants? Leaver was like a magistrate, and gave little time for contributions. Tony Reynolds got my 5 stars! The problem is that academics like to have tight control these events, almost as if they want to have the right result at the end. Wish I had 1% of their budget.
wondered where innovations come from? Not from the academics or the big players. How many innovation we get from JD? Not much, if you look most of their new stuff they bough from small innovators.
Even the CVT transmission they got from outside.
York-Th.
SilliamWhale
Member
No Till is by nature a very practical discipline. It deliberately involves a lot facets - water, soil, chemicals, machinery, tyres, environment, erosion, fertility management, social life, soil biology etc. so the measurables are more difficult to monitor. So I suppose an academic may want to confine the data or collate to make it more measurable.
Are they still really doing a no till trial with a Vaddy spirit?
Are they still really doing a no till trial with a Vaddy spirit?
- Location
- CW5 Cheshire
Are they still really doing a no till trial with a Vaddy spirit?
Yes is the answer to that, but the working elements are removed and the land is light enough for the disc coulters to work OK. Their argument is that different row widths on different drills could skew results. A bigger problem with the trial for me is that the field is just following the normal farm rotation, it is not one that would be used in No Till and the crops seem to be established when the farm can fit the job in. I think the plots were drilled around the 3rd of November last year.
Unsurprisingly, little grew in the tractor wheelings on the No Till plots. IMHO No Till is too complicated and long term a system to be proved in simple trials like this. It is plain to see No Till works, there are plenty of farmers proving that. What we need is trial work to optimise the system in different situations, and perhaps measure and understand what is going on in No Till soils.
Dan Powell
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
I went and towards the end we had a tour around the various areas of research, including a talk from a Vaderstadt employee about No Till drills "in general". He then showed us a Seedhawk and the Spirit, and concluded that the Harper Adams soil was so friable that no till was possible with the Spirit's rear double disk coulters with the cultivation element lifted out of work. The academics concluded that this was a good thing as all plots were drilled with the same coulters thus eliminating other differences such as row width etc.
The other major limitation was that they are doing a cereal only rotation. So far winter wheat, winter barley, winter barley. Good luck with brome control in a few years time. Presumeably no cover crops either to give different root types in the rotation.
They are also not sowing the plots at a different angle each year.
Everything I have read on here and learnt about no till from talking to other farmers points towards success in no till being driven by the adoption of a broad system of management changes, and not just ceasing to cultivate before you drill. Their results will be meaningless.
The other major limitation was that they are doing a cereal only rotation. So far winter wheat, winter barley, winter barley. Good luck with brome control in a few years time. Presumeably no cover crops either to give different root types in the rotation.
They are also not sowing the plots at a different angle each year.
Everything I have read on here and learnt about no till from talking to other farmers points towards success in no till being driven by the adoption of a broad system of management changes, and not just ceasing to cultivate before you drill. Their results will be meaningless.
Dan Powell
Member
- Location
- Shropshire
@Richard III beat me to it... learnt more that day talking to you and @SimonC
shakerator
Member
- Location
- LINCS
Yes is the answer to that, but the working elements are removed and the land is light enough for the disc coulters to work OK. Their argument is that different row widths on different drills could skew results. A bigger problem with the trial for me is that the field is just following the normal farm rotation, it is not one that would be used in No Till and the crops seem to be established when the farm can fit the job in. I think the plots were drilled around the 3rd of November last year.
IMHO No Till is too complicated and long term a system to be proved in simple trials like this. It is plain to see No Till works, there are plenty of farmers proving that. What we need is trial work to optimise the system in different situations, and perhaps measure and understand what is going on in No Till soils.
Plot A yielded 10% more than plot B. So anything done to plot B must be avoided! Anything done to plot A must be bought in copious amounts!
Good logic!!
Baling Hay
Member
If this trial has commercial backing then I know the result already
Maybe it is a good thing that the trial will most likely say that no till is pish? That way those who are able to adopt the management changes required for it to work will be more competitive vs. the people who won't change?
dontknowanything
Member
- Location
- Cambridge
Depends if you put yourself first, or the big picture.
I think we all know what human nature dictates.