Anyone regret moving to no-till?

[Louis Mc]

For balance here's some of our better second wheat. Straw baled, mustard drilled then wheat drilled about 10th oct. we are putting Pacifica on the headland but the middle of the field don't get any grass weed control at All.

Second pic, Sandra winter barley after wosr

Edit,first pic is the barley, 2nd is the wheat

 

[Spud]

Wandered around what I thought was our better bit of zero-till second wheat. Rather depressing experience. Very patchy, and plants look pretty unenthusiastic about their life. The Pacifica is killing a lot of brome in these crops. Never knew what brome really looked like until this year. A no-till weed I could do without.

With the above experience in mind I am reasonably content that we are maschioing behind our 750a drilled spring barley. We have fiddled around with settings and speeds and still the slot closure is not consistently good enough. It's not acceptable to have very patchy crops, and that is what we have despite drilling into what I thought were excellent conditions last autumn. To those who say wait until it dries up, we did that last year and by the end of April these mythically perfect conditions still hadn't arrived. Our soil never actually dried to anywhere near as dry as it is now. To wait for even better conditions than we have now is totally unpalatable. The very late drilled crops were loss making even before fixed costs in some cases.

Has that crop had any fert yet? It does look a bit patchy, but viable with the reins tight! Will you cut the fungicide back on what would be normal, due to the lower plant population?

To me, DD has a strategic place. My observations suggest that, in many cases, farmers are looking for a 'one size fits all' drill, to sow everything into anything.

I am looking more towards more, but cheaper drills (mainly due to scale not justifying newer stuff). We have a spud planter for spuds, and a precision drill for beet, but in the past, the combi has sown everything else.

We currently have three drills. A cheap 21yo 4m suffolk coulter drill on a power harrow, that doesnt do a lot, mostly winter barley into ploughed and pressed land if we need to get on, and spring barley on some thin stoney land for a customer.
The lions share of the cereals are sown by a year old 3m combi on discs which is perfectly acceptable in most cases, either min til behind the shakerator, or behind the plough and press. Spring barley into over wintered ploughing (not pressed) following beet.
Cover crops and winter and spring beans (and occasionally a few cereals) are sown by a 17yo Kockerling tine drill, direct into stubble or cultivated stubble.
I'm on the look out for a cheaper 3m minimal disturbance direct disc drill, to sow certain covers, and spring oats into a kockerling drilled over winter cover on land with BG present.

We find with a thin cover crop, weeds grow much more prolifically than they do on an undisturbed or even disced stubble, or under a thick cover. A disced stubble takes forever to dry out in spring, as does an over thick cover, or worse, wet heavy land covered with chopped straw. (we bale everything, and return fym)

The methodology been to spread the fym onto baled wheat stubbles, sow a cover crop (cheap) with the Kockerling with tinebar on the front, (use the fym to feed the cover), apply glyphosate maybe a week ahead of drilling spring oats with a low disturbance disc drill to minimise the amount of spring germinating grass weeds. First wheats generally min til (but not mixing soil any deeper than necessary ie shakerator rather than trio) second wheats may be min til, maybe ploughed 1 yr in 6 pre second wheat if bg level dictates it to be appropriate prior to been combi drilled. Winter beans direct drilled.

Flexibility is key, and a field by field, season by season approach seems to be essential here to minimise costs, maximise margins, and reduce the dreaded grassweeds.

Lighter land sees root crops and more plough, but has no bg, so has a slightly different strategy.

 

[RBM]

Wandered around what I thought was our better bit of zero-till second wheat. Rather depressing experience. Very patchy, and plants look pretty unenthusiastic about their life. The Pacifica is killing a lot of brome in these crops. Never knew what brome really looked like until this year. A no-till weed I could do without.

With the above experience in mind I am reasonably content that we are maschioing behind our 750a drilled spring barley. We have fiddled around with settings and speeds and still the slot closure is not consistently good enough. It's not acceptable to have very patchy crops, and that is what we have despite drilling into what I thought were excellent conditions last autumn. To those who say wait until it dries up, we did that last year and by the end of April these mythically perfect conditions still hadn't arrived. Our soil never actually dried to anywhere near as dry as it is now. To wait for even better conditions than we have now is totally unpalatable. The very late drilled crops were loss making even before fixed costs in some cases.

Think you're asking a lot to no-till second wheats with a reasonable amount of straw residue, if the straw was removed think the establishment may potentially be better? A lot going on with straw residue breaking down, a scenario where nitrogen in the seedbed would be a bonus.

 

[Andrew K]

We drilled winter beans 5" deep into a dynadrived stubble on one of the heaviest fields on the farm last November with our Kockerling drill....which has 17" shares!!

Different soil over here Spud, Windsor series clays smear like the devil...

 

[Mr Charisma]

Need more popcorn ,,,,,, might invest in a defibrillator ,,,, could be a 1000 pounds we spent ,,,,, not for the popcorn intake which might become excesive if mellors turns up again but incase a big shiny direct drill turns up instead of a rapid

But as a family setup which has 4 wages going out of the bank every month , ,,,,, and we are not by any means a very big outfit means that every field has to perform , no ifs or buts and the one photo that has told me to tread carefully is @strip-till-phil ,,,,, because I bet he is fairly despondent

 

[Flat 10]

Need more popcorn ,,,,,, might invest in a defibrillator ,,,, could be a 1000 pounds we spent ,,,,, not for the popcorn intake which might become excesive if mellors turns up again but incase a big shiny direct drill turns up instead of a rapid

But as a family setup which has 4 wages going out of the bank every month , ,,,,, and we are not by any means a very big outfit means that every field has to perform , no ifs or buts and the one photo that has told me to tread carefully is @strip-till-phil ,,,,, because I bet he is fairly despondent

4 wages is a bind!

 

[franklin]

4 wages is a bind!

May not be full story. 4 wages of £20k each on 1000ac of "paid for" land would be no more than an AHA rent. Just saying an online forum does not need to give us the full run-down on other posters farm finances!

means that every field has to perform

Is there ever a case where a field doesnt have to perform?

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

 

[Mr Charisma]

May not be full story. 4 wages of £20k each on 1000ac of "paid for" land would be no more than an AHA rent. Just saying an online forum does not need to give us the full run-down on other posters farm finances!



Is there ever a case where a field doesnt have to perform?

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

800 acres of cropping ,,,,, 200 acres owned , rest rented but mostly very affordable ,,,,, half well drained ,half with very limited drainage .
Another 400 acres where we do the combining , primary cults and drilling , 300 head of cattle but the most important bit no borrowings ,,,,, although not a huge profit margin as the wages take care of that

 

[Tractor Boy]

May not be full story. 4 wages of £20k each on 1000ac of "paid for" land would be no more than an AHA rent. Just saying an online forum does not need to give us the full run-down on other posters farm finances!



Is there ever a case where a field doesnt have to perform?

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

4 wages of 20k!!! Which decade are you living in?

 

[shakerator]

Wandered around what I thought was our better bit of zero-till second wheat. Rather depressing experience. Very patchy, and plants look pretty unenthusiastic about their life. The Pacifica is killing a lot of brome in these crops. Never knew what brome really looked like until this year. A no-till weed I could do without.

With the above experience in mind I am reasonably content that we are maschioing behind our 750a drilled spring barley. We have fiddled around with settings and speeds and still the slot closure is not consistently good enough. It's not acceptable to have very patchy crops, and that is what we have despite drilling into what I thought were excellent conditions last autumn. To those who say wait until it dries up, we did that last year and by the end of April these mythically perfect conditions still hadn't arrived. Our soil never actually dried to anywhere near as dry as it is now. To wait for even better conditions than we have now is totally unpalatable. The very late drilled crops were loss making even before fixed costs in some cases.

It doesn't look that bad, the Pacifica will stop tillering for a while making the stand look worse. Seen crops like that fill in fine before

 

[Mr Charisma]

4 wages of 20k!!! Which decade are you living in?

Actually he's not a million miles out

 

[Mr Charisma]

Is there ever a case where a field doesnt have to perform?

Well you would think that but looking around the countryside at the moment it seems not

 

[SilliamWhale]

Wandered around what I thought was our better bit of zero-till second wheat. Rather depressing experience. Very patchy, and plants look pretty unenthusiastic about their life. The Pacifica is killing a lot of brome in these crops. Never knew what brome really looked like until this year. A no-till weed I could do without.

With the above experience in mind I am reasonably content that we are maschioing behind our 750a drilled spring barley. We have fiddled around with settings and speeds and still the slot closure is not consistently good enough. It's not acceptable to have very patchy crops, and that is what we have despite drilling into what I thought were excellent conditions last autumn. To those who say wait until it dries up, we did that last year and by the end of April these mythically perfect conditions still hadn't arrived. Our soil never actually dried to anywhere near as dry as it is now. To wait for even better conditions than we have now is totally unpalatable. The very late drilled crops were loss making even before fixed costs in some cases.

I wouldn't have done that myself unless it was FSS at a high rate and could afford the losses on it especially as it is your first year. But clearly somethings not right with one or two of the coulters there. Also I'd have been tempted to put the pressure very high to make sure the machine cuts a clean slice and firms it in well - how often were you out of the tractor cab checking it because to me there is a bit of operator cock up there. Another thing you have to ask is if some plants are well established and others not, then why? If its slug pressure then fair enough but if its placement or straw spread then its dealable with. Also when was it last tilled as the hard consolidated soil tends to allow a better cut in time. Also were you cutting as high as possible?

On the Exapta website they recommend putting the pressure extremely high at times, not saying they're right but they do obviously have a lot of experience of these machines if not quite the residue of wheat straw.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Need more popcorn ,,,,,, might invest in a defibrillator ,,,, could be a 1000 pounds we spent ,,,,, not for the popcorn intake which might become excesive if mellors turns up again but incase a big shiny direct drill turns up instead of a rapid

But as a family setup which has 4 wages going out of the bank every month , ,,,,, and we are not by any means a very big outfit means that every field has to perform , no ifs or buts and the one photo that has told me to tread carefully is @strip-till-phil ,,,,, because I bet he is fairly despondent

Or the flipside is when you are drilling second wheat late into chopped wheat straw then expect that it may not always work as well as you want. Steps to ameliorate this will involve - cutting higher, drilling earlier, adding some N @ seeding , baling, keeping it cheap just in case it goes wrong (because things do go wrong - sometimes ploughed fields never get drilled in time and are left til spring)

I know I always say it but at the end of the day its all management. Thats not to say some soils aren't difficult and some places its harder to do than others but it still comes down to management. You makes your choices basically - for some its deep tillage, for some its baling, for some its strip till, for some its rotation, for some its sheep, for some its shallow tillage, for some its investing in top notch straw choppers etc.

 

[Feldspar]

I wouldn't have done that myself unless it was FSS at a high rate and could afford the losses on it especially as it is your first year. But clearly somethings not right with one or two of the coulters there. Also I'd have been tempted to put the pressure very high to make sure the machine cuts a clean slice and firms it in well - how often were you out of the tractor cab checking it because to me there is a bit of operator cock up there. Another thing you have to ask is if some plants are well established and others not, then why? If its slug pressure then fair enough but if its placement or straw spread then its dealable with. Also when was it last tilled as the hard consolidated soil tends to allow a better cut in time. Also were you cutting as high as possible?

On the Exapta website they recommend putting the pressure extremely high at times, not saying they're right but they do obviously have a lot of experience of these machines if not quite the residue of wheat straw.

Will respond better later. To firm the seed better in the slot does putting the setting on the firming wheel from middle to firmest make much difference. Doesn't seem to.

Also, if it's wet and the slot isn't close to being closed, is it a viable tactic to just press the seed into the bottom of the slot and leave it open? My guess is not which why we're cultivating behind.

 

[shakerator]

Or the flipside is when you are drilling second wheat late into chopped wheat straw then expect that it may not always work as well as you want. Steps to ameliorate this will involve - cutting higher, drilling earlier, adding some N @ seeding , baling, keeping it cheap just in case it goes wrong (because things do go wrong - sometimes ploughed fields never get drilled in time and are left til spring)

I know I always say it but at the end of the day its all management. Thats not to say some soils aren't difficult and some places its harder to do than others but it still comes down to management. You makes your choices basically - for some its deep tillage, for some its baling, for some its strip till, for some its rotation, for some its sheep, for some its shallow tillage, for some its investing in top notch straw choppers etc.

Everybody knows it works if all things fall into place. I think what some here are saying is that logistically making all these things fit into place can be more expensive than tilling for some time /forgiveness, slippage in logistics. The difference between 1 day Seeding and 5mm rain the next day falling on either pre or post drilling can hugely effect establishment here in a way it just wouldn't under tillage

The seed is put in a more hostile environment, which may become a better environment some weeks later- but it has to get there

Also good soil can produce no stand and no structure a perfect stand- as stupid as this sounds.....got to break obsessive link between soil health and yield- not convinced there is much of a link with wheat esp

 

[SilliamWhale]

Everybody knows it works if all things fall into place. I think what some here are saying is that logistically making all these things fit into place can be more expensive than tilling for some time /forgiveness, slippage in logistics. The difference between 1 day Seeding and 5mm rain the next day falling on either pre or post drilling can hugely effect establishment here in a way it just wouldn't under tillage

The seed is put in a more hostile environment, which may become a better environment some weeks later- but it has to get there

Also good soil can produce no stand and no structure a perfect stand- as stupid as this sounds.....got to break obsessive link between soil health and yield- not convinced there is much of a link with wheat esp

I agree with you if i felt i needed to cultivate etc. I would. We did plough a field 4 years ago when i cocked something up. I would plough again if needed and i do a bit of cultivation with a gls.

I dont think the yield plateau and soil health are that linked. To be honest i think the yield plateau is all a bit.of a misnomer as when we dwarfed wheat we had a big jump. I think soil health does increase resilience rather than yield

 

[SilliamWhale]

Will respond better later. To firm the seed better in the slot does putting the setting on the firming wheel from middle to firmest make much difference. Doesn't seem to.

Also, if it's wet and the slot isn't close to being closed, is it a viable tactic to just press the seed into the bottom of the slot and leave it open? My guess is not which why we're cultivating behind.

Well lleaving it open with our humidity is not the end of the world in my experience as long as the seed is firmed in. Often i feel seed is firmed slightly to the side of the open trench rather than the bottom but dont know what your experience of that is? I think the shut trench.is nice and more.important in the absence of good quality firming.

My mate with john deere pajamas reckons rolling and shattaboards are very helpful ive not got them but have you tried them?

 

[Feldspar]

Well lleaving it open with our humidity is not the end of the world in my experience as long as the seed is firmed in. Often i feel seed is firmed slightly to the side of the open trench rather than the bottom but dont know what your experience of that is? I think the shut trench.is nice and more.important in the absence of good quality firming.

My mate with john deere pajamas reckons rolling and shattaboards are very helpful ive not got them but have you tried them?

Have not got batter boards on rolls. Think they could work well though.

 

[Louis Mc]

Will respond better later. To firm the seed better in the slot does putting the setting on the firming wheel from middle to firmest make much difference. Doesn't seem to.

Also, if it's wet and the slot isn't close to being closed, is it a viable tactic to just press the seed into the bottom of the slot and leave it open? My guess is not which why we're cultivating behind.

Yes. We had loads of horrible open slots which I was very close to being Disowned for. Wheat came perfectly. Drilled early October though