Arable producers reverting to a mixed farming

[DrWazzock]

Is there really so much money in cattle that people can afford to store them? Sounds like a hobby to me where people have paddocks to fill and aren't too bothered about profit.
Calves should be out on the grass first year with mother (preferably on somebody else's farm) then buy them in as stirks in the autumn. Prices are silly in the spring. Thereafter in a shed growing and fattening and turning straw into muck. Putting them back out for the second summer will slow them down and you can't afford to keep any animal that is not growing / fattening at maximum rate IMO.

Let the ewes and lambs have spring and summer grazing. They will rocket on it and get them away quickly. Shut up what gets away from them and conserve it for winter silage for the cattle and bit for the sheep. Sow stubble turnips on spent grass leys for the sheep in the autumn / winter and also fatten later lambs on them and on beet tops. Keep a bit of beet back for the stock.

That's mixed farming in the East for a one or two man band using no extra labour. Won't suit all of course but it fits well for us. Buying store cattle in the autumn suits us as we know how much forage and bedding we have in stock by that stage and we can buy numbers to suit. Buying them in the spring is no good as prices leave no margin and we want the best spring grass for the sheep.

All that mob grazing cattle outside all year round sounds like bloody hard work.

I think it was fairly traditional for farms here in the East to buy in stirks in years gone by to keep arable folk busy over winter using waste products like straw. Makes sense to us. Putting up a few cattle sheds is better than putting 50 acres more down to grass.

 

[DRC]

Is there really so much money in cattle that people can afford to store them? Sounds like a hobby to me where people have paddocks to fill and aren't too bothered about profit.
Calves should be out on the grass first year with mother (preferably on somebody else's farm) then buy them in as stirks in the autumn. Prices are silly in the spring. Thereafter in a shed growing and fattening and turning straw into muck. Putting them back out for the second summer will slow them down and you can't afford to keep any animal that is not growing / fattening at maximum rate IMO.

Let the ewes and lambs have spring and summer grazing. They will rocket on it and get them away quickly. Shut up what gets away from them and conserve it for winter silage for the cattle and bit for the sheep. Sow stubble turnips on spent grass leys for the sheep in the autumn / winter and also fatten later lambs on them and on beet tops. Keep a bit of beet back for the stock.

That's mixed farming in the East for a one or two man band using no extra labour. Won't suit all of course but it fits well for us. Buying store cattle in the autumn suits us as we know how much forage and bedding we have in stock by that stage and we can buy numbers to suit. Buying them in the spring is no good as prices leave no margin and we want the best spring grass for the sheep.

All that mob grazing cattle outside all year round sounds like bloody hard work.

I think it was fairly traditional for farms here in the East to buy in stirks in years gone by to keep arable folk busy over winter using waste products like straw. Makes sense to us. Putting up a few cattle sheds is better than putting 50 acres more down to grass.

on the other hand, wintering cattle can be a tedious tie, especially for a one man band. that's not to mention all the cost of making forage and carting straw in and muck back out.

 

[onesiedale]

I would have thought, going forward, that there is huge scope for 'JV' type arrangements between arable farms and dairy units. More specifically, grazing dairy units' youngstock
Dairy operators in this sector tend to run simple well defined businesses where the key input for stock is grazed forage. Stock are usually all of a similar age management is easy and stock return home at well defined dates.
Water and fencing isn't a massive investment for drystock.
Just a bit of outside the box thinking needed.

 

[DRC]

I would have thought, going forward, that there is huge scope for 'JV' type arrangements between arable farms and dairy units. More specifically, grazing dairy units' youngstock
Dairy operators in this sector tend to run simple well defined businesses where the key input for stock is grazed forage. Stock are usually all of a similar age management is easy and stock return home at well defined dates.
Water and fencing isn't a massive investment for drystock.
Just a bit of outside the box thinking needed.

That's ok if you can link holdings, as TB is the bug bear.

 

[Brisel]

I'm currently letting grazing to a local dairy farmer for his followers & we're linked holdings. He's aware of the plans for grazing here - he has plans of his own to go elsewhere as soon as he can get another dairy built on some family land in Staffs.

 

[onesiedale]

Dairy isn't a bad thing, I'm just not convinced the powers that be here will put up the capital required for a new parlour & yard. We stopped milking in 1992 so everything looks pretty shabby. With mob grazing & a milk from grass system with spring calving it could work. Just the wrong soil type for summer grass - the chalk does dry out even if the roots go down a long long way. Once Brexit ever gets sorted & we know where we are going, I think there's a good future for UK dairy.

Dairying really can stack up. A good sound grazing unit should achieve ROC of between 15 and 25%. So long as low cost production management is applied, no room for optional extras!
Some good operators out there looking joint ventures

 

[onesiedale]

That's ok if you can link holdings, as TB is the bug bear.

Yes, you're right, TB is probably the biggest single factor holding back the industry, not so much the disease, but more the standstill that can happen in event of a breakdown.
However sensible arrangements between specific businesses should be able to overcome TB issues. This must be an area that Animal Health should pay more attention to, as it is the responsible approach with 'closed loops' of stock management

 

[DrWazzock]

on the other hand, wintering cattle can be a tedious tie, especially for a one man band. that's not to mention all the cost of making forage and carting straw in and muck back out.

When the sleet it is horizontal I'd rather be on straw and concrete in a shed with the cattle than trying to drag some supplementary feed across a swamp of a field. Baling the straw makes zero till much easier, but you aren't exporting it so you retain the nutrients on farm. The cattle here prefer the shed, given a choice, especially in the heat of summer or with driving rain. They always run for cover. Key thing is to have sheds entirely open along south facing long side, monopitch to back so natural air changes and no temp rise inside.

It is no accident that just about every farm here had a "crewyard" as we call cattle yards to bring them in for the winter, but I suppose folks will have to learn that all over again.

OK, we did once outwinter some small Angus's as an emergency but ended up having to let them into the wood for shelter and a bit of dry standing. Not saying all land won't stand it but a lot won't in a wet winter unless they are spread so thin that you use up too much ground and we cant afford to do that. They will still congregate and poach round feeders though, epsecially once the grass has disappeared. I have never had a to belly clip a fat beast either and its not something i'd want to start.

They aren't a tie as they are the easiest job to delegate to an old boy if you want to get away for a bit. Can't do that with the beet lifting or loading.
Christmas morning there is nothing better than getting out the house and doing the gaffing, seeing them lined up eating while you spread another layer of bright barley straw round them.

Learn from history.

Yes, I know it won't suit large conservation minded estates, but it works for us.

Each to their own.

 

[ollie989898]

I farm arable as well as livestock.

Quite clear that Brisel is at the top of his game come arable farming and has a great deal of knowledge in this area.

As for Ollie, well he is an expert in everything be that sheep/ cattle/ arable/ dairy/ machinery and so the list goes on, only trouble is he doesn't actually farm any of these things yet the way he goes on you would think he was running large farms in each of the above sector's!

Hell yes, I can run two large farms simultaneously and study for a medical degree in my spare time, probably have to cut back on TFF about 30% though. Up the Grolsch consumption by 20% mind and I reckon it's do-able.

 

[ollie989898]

For starters I would take the AHDB figures ( be that for intensive/ extensive etc ) with a large pinch of salt, was only about 5 years ago that they claimed in those figures that the average silage costs for wintering suckler cows indoors for the top 25% of herds was something like £12 head for a 180 day winter, quite clear that is a complete nonsense!

As for extensive finishing, that is fine but you need to put in leys/ have very good grass/ grazing management and need to be targeting a growth rate of 1 kilo head a day, if you cant get the cattle away finished by 24/28 months max at an average liveweight of at least 600 kilo's you will be putting money to the job.

No end of these so called extensive fed/ outdoor 365 days a year cattle in the store markets that are between 24/30 months old but only 350/400 kilos liveweight, complete waste of time and finishers cant do anything with these cattle and they sell for very little money.

Btw I wouldn't take the advice of Ollie on cattle farming as he has never run a cattle herd, what looks good on paper ( which is no doubt what he is referring to quoting on this thread ) very rarely actually works in the real world.

.....

Which reminds me of a thread in the health section on TFF a few weeks ago when Oliie was giving out medical advice to someone ( with no knowledge of that persons medical record ) and telling them to ignore what their consultant was advising them to do ref treatment/ what meds to take etc etc!! And the worse of it is Ollie isn't even a qualified doctor yet he felt on that thread his knowledge was more superior than the patients actual consultant......................................

I give out free advice all the time, even if people don't ask for it. I just use telepathy see. Just like you do about people's business/lifestyle and sex lives. You should have your own forum in actuality, sod the farming down the road- rent it out as I keep telling you.

 

[Pilatus]

I stumbled across www.opendairy.co.uk ,anyone farm Nr them.

 

[ollie989898]

I'm currently letting grazing to a local dairy farmer for his followers & we're linked holdings. He's aware of the plans for grazing here - he has plans of his own to go elsewhere as soon as he can get another dairy built on some family land in Staffs.

A JV might work with someone who has an established business already but who wishes to expand. I know of two farms that have what I would call 'summer dairies'- basically a NZ style parlour that is surrounded by a collecting yard, a bit of concrete with a metal roof and a plant room. They fetch the cows onto the farm in spring, milk them all summer and pull them off in the autumn- there is no housing on the farm whatsoever, but they have this on another unit. The main reason for doing it is that they can spread their cows/grazing over a larger area and make milk from a bigger platform without over-stocking throughout the season.

If you had a suitably long arrangement with such a party, that would make the cost of installing the parlour, tracks and any necessary fencing it could be made worthwhile provided the details could be worked out.

The parlours on both were pretty large in terms of number of cows and the speed you could milk them but were deliberately minimalistic to keep the capital costs down. There was some kind of provision for slurry storage but I can't remember the exact setup: it didn't need a huge amount besides dirty water and washings. They get a big (fresh) grazing platform to go at for 6+ months, you get livestock on the farm and into a rotation that would benefit you.

 

[DRC]

@Brisel in action.

 

[tw15]

@Brisel in action.

The only way for a low cost grass fed conservation based system . Was thinking would be better with a some sort of cover then low and behold towards the end he pulled them out to demonstrate them . Did notice that you wont miss out on a bit off TFF, just got to get a milk churn Brisel you will be sorted .
I did like the cake refill method simple low cost system that works for some . You could make a better more operator friendly hygienic set up so its not so uncomfortable in cooler wet days . Then again you wont be out in the worst of winter as the cow would be dry waiting to calf down .
Simpletons way at looking at like me cows eat grass make milk you want , get them back out feeding within a minute of milking makes sense . No shed full of depreciating kit and a lot of other costs cut out . They will be slightly lower yielding but when you look at the cost involved to get that extra yield out of a cow it does make you think . You might not be the one saying you have the highest yielding cows in the parish and as we know out is not everything profit is king .

 

[DRC]

The only way for a low cost grass fed conservation based system . Was thinking would be better with a some sort of cover then low and behold towards the end he pulled them out to demonstrate them . Did notice that you wont miss out on a bit off TFF, just got to get a milk churn Brisel you will be sorted .
I did like the cake refill method simple low cost system that works for some . You could make a better more operator friendly hygienic set up so its not so uncomfortable in cooler wet days . Then again you wont be out in the worst of winter as the cow would be dry waiting to calf down .
Simpletons way at looking at like me cows eat grass make milk you want , get them back out feeding within a minute of milking makes sense . No shed full of depreciating kit and a lot of other costs cut out . They will be slightly lower yielding but when you look at the cost involved to get that extra yield out of a cow it does make you think . You might not be the one saying you have the highest yielding cows in the parish and as we know out is not everything profit is king .

my Dad used a milking bail in the 1960's, as most of our land was away from the farmyard in the village.

 

[DRC]

This is a more up to date approach, obviously in NZ, but I think there are farms doing it on a large scale in uk.

 

[lloyd]

Brisel will soon have more time aswell as
the arable becomes more automated.

 

[Bossfarmer]

When my Dad is away in the winter i feed and bed 150 finishers in an hour and a half. Maybe less if only one mix of feed.

When he is here i bed for 30mins and he feeds for hour.

However you can easily lose a day a week collecting stockfeed pots. Bruising barley etc
Get a leaking water trough on a Sunday morning you need to muck the shed.
Biggest problem i have when on my own is needing to get a problem beast out.

We have increased finishing cattle a lot since i stopped growing spuds. Also swap all spare straw for muck with neighbour. This has improved our cropping a lot.

are you finding the cattle more profitable than the spuds?

 

[KennyO]

are you finding the cattle more profitable than the spuds?

The business as a whole is in better shape since we stopped growing potatoes. Much easier to control costs and less chance to lose a fortune in a bad year.

The cattle make use of existing infrastructure and family labour. They also share most of their equipment with arable side of business.

Potatoes done well should be more profitable but you need to be small scale and self contained with machinery and labour or large scale with lots of equipment and staff. You need great attention to detail, good contacts and good luck. You also need the ability to withstand a bad year when you could lose £1000+ per acre.

 

[tw15]

The business as a whole is in better shape since we stopped growing potatoes. Much easier to control costs and less chance to lose a fortune in a bad year.

The cattle make use of existing infrastructure and family labour. They also share most of their equipment with arable side of business.

Potatoes done well should be more profitable but you need to be small scale and self contained with machinery and labour or large scale with lots of equipment and staff. You need great attention to detail, good contacts and good luck. You also need the ability to withstand a bad year when you could lose £1000+ per acre.

The three p ;s of farming , potatoes, pigs, poultry you can make a lot of money or loose a lot of money . That's what my dad used to say . None of those enterprises is for the faint hearted .