Bees: Pesticide restrictions must be extended to wheat - new Friends of the Earth report

[Feldspar]

when the bees main contact is from crops with seed dressing in august when they forage in the following summer what is the evidence
bees do not forage in wheat or rape crops in the autumn they fly over them at 2 m high and visit some trees and heather my local bee farmer has never seen a problem with seed dressings where the rate is very low and degraded by the spring
his biggest problem in the future will be reduced areas of nector producing crops which will concentrate the bees and lead to over crowding of nector crops and spread of bee diseases overstocking is a problem for bees as with any livestock it is only basic husbandry which we learnt before going to ag college

I see what you mean. Do we know that neonic concentrations in OSR pollen are significantly degraded come flowering time in the spring? I need to do a bit more research on that one as I'm not sure.

 

[Feldspar]

I expected better from you. You've also ignored my other posts about viable alternatives 3 years ago I was growing 4 crops in the rotation. 3 were winter crops (wheat, barley & osr) all with neonic seed dressings. The 4th was spring barley with no insecticides at all. Now I grow wheat with Deter but the rest don't have any neonics. Ok, so I would have used neonics if I could still do so. Half are spring crops with preceeding cover crops grown without any insecticides. Happy now?

Ask what former osr growers in Herts/Beds/Essex/Cambs are doing for bees these days. If I can't grow crops without pest protection i.e. profitably then I won't grow those crops. Not very sustainable.

So, what is the better way?

I think most farmers would be more likely to just drop a crop than trying to find an innovative solution (which obviously brings with it the possibility of an increased risk of failure). I'm not saying that's the right approach, but I think it's probably going to be what most people would do.

Cereals are a bit more tricky, but one obvious solution with OSR without neonics is to make the establishment phase as cheap as possible. We home saved seed, direct drilled with the Claydon, didn't put a pre-em on, rolled with slug pellets and then shut the gate. Didn't really devote that much management time to nursing the crop in the early days. We were lucky and the crop had rain (more important effect than neonics IMO) and we now have too good a crop (although fair amount of cranesbill). In future I would like to include OSR with some companion / cover crop species and decide whether to call it OSR or a cover crop in September.

 

[Brisel]

True

 

[yellow belly]

I expected better from you. You've also ignored my other posts about viable alternatives 3 years ago I was growing 4 crops in the rotation. 3 were winter crops (wheat, barley & osr) all with neonic seed dressings. The 4th was spring barley with no insecticides at all. Now I grow wheat with Deter but the rest don't have any neonics. Ok, so I would have used neonics if I could still do so. Half are spring crops with preceeding cover crops grown without any insecticides. Happy now?

Ask what former osr growers in Herts/Beds/Essex/Cambs are doing for bees these days. If I can't grow crops without pest protection i.e. profitably then I won't grow those crops. Not very sustainable.

So, what is the better way?

use the solution we have now for the problems we have now trying to produce the perfect system will lead to total failure the solutions to the 2020s will be developed in the 2020s
this has been the case for 1000 of years of civilisation adapt to the environment
farmers have been at the forefront of development without it civilisation ceases to exist due to starvation

 

[Feldspar]

when the bees main contact is from crops with seed dressing in august when they forage in the following summer what is the evidence
bees do not forage in wheat or rape crops in the autumn they fly over them at 2 m high and visit some trees and heather my local bee farmer has never seen a problem with seed dressings where the rate is very low and degraded by the spring
his biggest problem in the future will be reduced areas of nector producing crops which will concentrate the bees and lead to over crowding of nector crops and spread of bee diseases overstocking is a problem for bees as with any livestock it is only basic husbandry which we learnt before going to ag college

Apologies, I'm doing this quickly before my supper, but here's one study that finds effects on wild bees and goes against your supposition that no studies have found effects that link seed treated OSR to deleterious effects: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v521/n7550/abs/nature14420.html. As always, there will be a number of studies and a full lit review is required to get the balance of evidence, but I'd be cautious about adopting your position with any certainty.

 

[yellow belly]

I think most farmers would be more likely to just drop a crop than trying to find an innovative solution (which obviously brings with it the possibility of an increased risk of failure). I'm not saying that's the right approach, but I think it's probably going to be what most people would do.

Cereals are a bit more tricky, but one obvious solution with OSR without neonics is to make the establishment phase as cheap as possible. We home saved seed, direct drilled with the Claydon, didn't put a pre-em on, rolled with slug pellets and then shut the gate. Didn't really devote that much management time to nursing the crop in the early days. We were lucky and the crop had rain (more important effect than neonics IMO) and we now have too good a crop (although fair amount of cranesbill). In future I would like to include OSR with some companion / cover crop species and decide whether to call it OSR or a cover crop in September.

the big problem for rape profitability is not beating csfb in establishment but lavae that damage the crop because of the increase in numbers due to the long hatching period in a mild winter

 

[Feldspar]

the big problem for rape profitability is not beating csfb in establishment but lavae that damage the crop because of the increase in numbers due to the long hatching period in a mild winter

This is true, I agree, but are we clear that the neonics were having a big effect on larvae before the ban? Genuine question.

 

[shakerator]

We will have diamides either this Autumn or next. So this debate will soon be irrelevant thank god.


But will we be able to treat our own seeds. Or might we just have to have it treated by the firm which happens to be a seed breeder now aswell as Chem conglomerate I.e our hybrid or nothing

 

[fudge]

I don't see how subsidising organic production, presumably to get more growers doing it, would make up for the significant shortfall in output and our reduced ability to feed the world, even if every conventional farm converted.

As said before, we have an unnatural number of people on this planet, hence we have to use unnatural food production systems in order to feed them (unfortunately).

Eh? Who said anything about feeding the world? Locally the current problem is over production, policies can be amended at a later date.

 

[yellow belly]

This is true, I agree, but are we clear that the neonics were having a big effect on larvae before the ban? Genuine question.

before The ban the number of adults were reduced year on year to give very low numbers laying eggs so lower larvae numbers

 

[dontknowanything]

I expected better from you. You've also ignored my other posts about viable alternatives 3 years ago I was growing 4 crops in the rotation. 3 were winter crops (wheat, barley & osr) all with neonic seed dressings. The 4th was spring barley with no insecticides at all. Now I grow wheat with Deter but the rest don't have any neonics. Ok, so I would have used neonics if I could still do so. Half are spring crops with preceeding cover crops grown without any insecticides. Happy now?

Ask what former osr growers in Herts/Beds/Essex/Cambs are doing for bees these days. If I can't grow crops without pest protection i.e. profitably then I won't grow those crops. Not very sustainable.

So, what is the better way?

OK, you're right

 

[dontknowanything]

before The ban the number of adults were reduced year on year to give very low numbers laying eggs so lower larvae numbers

There has almost certainly been more CSFB since the ban. But I don't think it's valid to say this must be due entirely to the ban itself, in fact it's impossible to say so as there has been no control. The fact we've had two mild winters to prolong the breeding has, I suspect, also caused some of the problem. I wonder how upset people would be now if the last three winters had all been very cold?

 

[Brisel]

There has almost certainly been more CSFB since the ban. But I don't think it's valid to say this must be due entirely to the ban itself, in fact it's impossible to say so as there has been no control. The fact we've had two mild winters to prolong the breeding has, I suspect, also caused some of the problem. I wonder how upset people would be now if the last three winters had all been very cold?

You've hit the nail on the head there. A perfect storm. A mate in Herts who did get some neonic treated seed in autumn 2015 had it eaten by CSFB, just a few days after they had finished eating hs undressed farm saved seed. The crop was still a write off, probably from the sheer number of beetles eating the plants. If the insecticide killed 80% of them there were still enough to finish it off.

OK, you're right

Not sure what you mean there - no smileys to convey sarcasm, frustration or whatever?????

Every day is a school day

 

[dontknowanything]

You've hit the nail on the head there. A perfect storm. A mate in Herts who did get some neonic treated seed in autumn 2015 had it eaten by CSFB, just a few days after they had finished eating hs undressed farm saved seed. The crop was still a write off, probably from the sheer number of beetles eating the plants. If the insecticide killed 80% of them there were still enough to finish it off.



Not sure what you mean there - no smileys to convey sarcasm, frustration or whatever?????

Every day is a school day

http://thriplow-farms.co.uk/2016/08/05/thinking-about-oilseed-rape-and-neonics/

No need for smileys etc

 

[Brisel]

Very interesting, thank you.

I had a look around your website for postings on BYDV last year but couldn't find anything. Either I'm getting you mixed up with someone else's blog or just going senile. Did you post anything?

 

[dontknowanything]

Very interesting, thank you.

I had a look around your website for postings on BYDV last year but couldn't find anything. Either I'm getting you mixed up with someone else's blog or just going senile. Did you post anything?

Senile I think. I haven't ever deleted anything from the site so if it's not there now it never was. I seem to recall mentioning BYDV in the 2016 Annual Report though

http://thriplow-farms.co.uk/category/annual-report/

 

[shakerator]

Senile I think. I haven't ever deleted anything from the site so if it's not there now it never was. I seem to recall mentioning BYDV in the 2016 Annual Report though

http://thriplow-farms.co.uk/category/annual-report/

Off topic but v impressive w bean yields any tips from last year ? Seed rate fungicide programme etc ?

 

[dontknowanything]

Off topic but v impressive w bean yields any tips from last year ? Seed rate fungicide programme etc ?

I wish I knew. We didn't do anything out of the ordinary: 220kg/ha, two fungcides. No weeds at all which helps, no-till is great for this. Otherwise I think we just got lucky somewhere along the line, maybe the fungicide timing perhaps?

 

[Brisel]

Senile I think. I haven't ever deleted anything from the site so if it's not there now it never was. I seem to recall mentioning BYDV in the 2016 Annual Report though

http://thriplow-farms.co.uk/category/annual-report/

Yep, it was there. Thank you. Can you briefly tell me/us why you are not applying insecticides again this year please? What are you relying on instead? Any insecticide seed dressing?

 

[dontknowanything]

Yep, it was there. Thank you. Can you briefly tell me/us why you are not applying insecticides again this year please? What are you relying on instead? Any insecticide seed dressing?

Hope over experience?

I think we were unlucky last year, as the winter was so warm/non existent, it was probably the worst possible time to try it. This year we have actually sprayed our wheat less than the year before, because I've convinced our main agronomist it is a good idea - and we have drilled quite late so a lot didn't reach the threshold t-sums anyway.

Our seed doesn't have single purpose dressing, let alone insecticides. Tut tut.