Can't make it work

[Rob Holmes]

Firstly, apologies if this thread seems a bit dis-jointed, just my thoughts as I write

Secondly, this ISNT, nor do I want it to be a Claydon/direct drilling bashing thread, I just want some helpful advice

So, basically something fundamental needs to change imho

We been using the Claydon for about 7 years now, started with an SR, and the last 3 years using a Hybrid fert drill, and whilst the crops have been ok, we have had some failures, but also, had the best yields on the farm last year (1st, 2nd and 3rd wheats averaged 4.6t/acre)
..but we've always had a battle with slugs, every year we have to make number out applications of slug pellets, and discussions how to improve the situation for the following year.
The main problem is 1st wheats, the break crops seem to encourage slug populations.
Current rotation is WW/WW/WOSR/WW/WW/S. Beans
Agronomist (who likes the Claydon system), and not because he sells more slug pellets) thinks we need more cultivation to destroy the habitat underneath the trash, we bought a set of discs to sort this, but the fields are like a battlefield now, whereas, a couple of grass fields which we ploughed are quite walkable.

If you do t already know, ground here is heavy clay, and we don't get the luxury of creating stale seedbeds as we're still cutting wheat in Sept.

So whilst I like the concept, I'm coming to the conclusion it doesn't work here, I'm starting to think the solution is going back to the plough again, and bury the trash, get air into the soil.

I've probably missed some points out, and I stress again, I'm not knocking the Claydon and direct drilling concept

 

[snarling bee]

Whenever I have dabbled in DD I have always spent more money on inputs, usually slug pellets, and got a poorer yield compared with cultivated fields nearby. DD is not for everyone.

 

[Andrew K]

It may be your farming system that is working against it succeeding Rob, we struggled sometimes in the early days but ploughing or cultivations are not the answer IMO, they spread blackgrass in the case of min till, and loosening the ground with a plough helps slugs and leads to heavy diesel use etc
.I only reluctantly use a plough as a last ditch stand against BG now.

If your land will take a mole i would concentrate on drainage if you feel thats an issue, it has helped us , along with ditching, attention to fertility and drainage is key.We are using more manures these days to try and stimulate soil biology and increase OM.Taking off straw is avoided if possible but could help you manage slugs in the short term?Good consolidation is the best way to beat slugs in my view.

If you feel compaction is an issue then i am sure a judicious use of an LD type subsoiler may help in the right situations.

 

[Shutesy]

Just writing things back off the top of my head but would cover/catch crops help in terms of encouraging beneficial insects, providing alternative food sources for slugs while the wheat is getting away etc? Ploughing doesn't solve slugs from what I have seen here this year, OSR stubble ploughed and cultivated and still needed slug pellets despite a good firm seedbed. Just a bad year this year especially as its been warm for so long.

 

[Rob Holmes]

We do spread muck from our beef herd, any straw we don't need is chopped
We are lucky, and don't have a BG issue ...yet!
It's the chopped straw that's the issue, the agronomist has suggested removing it all and composting what the cattle don't use

 

[Rob Holmes]

Just writing things back off the top of my head but would cover/catch crops help in terms of encouraging beneficial insects, providing alternative food sources for slugs while the wheat is getting away etc? Ploughing doesn't solve slugs from what I have seen here this year, OSR stubble ploughed and cultivated and still needed slug pellets despite a good firm seedbed. Just a bad year this year especially as its been warm for so long.

Went on an Agrii farm walk before Xmas (2 miles away) and the cover crops were drilled on 1st wk of sept, it was advised that CC are established in mid August, around here we're still cutting wheat in sept, and drilling OSR will take priority over CC

 

[JD6920s]

I was going to suggest covers and more spring crops in the rotation, but as you say harvest can be late and unless plenty of labour it is difficult to get everything done at once, although we planted black oats and vetch in middle of sept and they have grown very well, but it has been mild so may not in other years!
I know Claydons location can make their harvest a little earlier and possibly easier, but they do chop their straw, and they do have some proper clay, it may not look like it now but believe me it is/was as we bought a furrow cracker many years ago and having watched the promo video I saw proper heavy stuff, so try to think of alternative things to assist you but don't don't plough, or you'll undo all the work you have done to date, and with commodity prices as they are you don't want to get back to max tillage!

 

[Will7]

Firstly, apologies if this thread seems a bit dis-jointed, just my thoughts as I write

Secondly, this ISNT, nor do I want it to be a Claydon/direct drilling bashing thread, I just want some helpful advice

So, basically something fundamental needs to change imho

We been using the Claydon for about 7 years now, started with an SR, and the last 3 years using a Hybrid fert drill, and whilst the crops have been ok, we have had some failures, but also, had the best yields on the farm last year (1st, 2nd and 3rd wheats averaged 4.6t/acre)
..but we've always had a battle with slugs, every year we have to make number out applications of slug pellets, and discussions how to improve the situation for the following year.
The main problem is 1st wheats, the break crops seem to encourage slug populations.
Current rotation is WW/WW/WOSR/WW/WW/S. Beans
Agronomist (who likes the Claydon system), and not because he sells more slug pellets) thinks we need more cultivation to destroy the habitat underneath the trash, we bought a set of discs to sort this, but the fields are like a battlefield now, whereas, a couple of grass fields which we ploughed are quite walkable.

If you do t already know, ground here is heavy clay, and we don't get the luxury of creating stale seedbeds as we're still cutting wheat in Sept.

So whilst I like the concept, I'm coming to the conclusion it doesn't work here, I'm starting to think the solution is going back to the plough again, and bury the trash, get air into the soil.

I've probably missed some points out, and I stress again, I'm not knocking the Claydon and direct drilling concept

Rob,
Andrew is entirely correct re drainage. If your land is heavy I assume you have an active ditch maintenance plan and all your land drains are of a modern vintage?? I feel this is the most important step.
I have had a well documented problem with slugs this year, a mangement howler on my part really but chalked down to experience. This combined with my struggles managing my residue has led me to design a piece of equipment to complement my straw rake which is being built currently by a local engineer.
I am going to be direct drilling, well my loose take on it anyway!

 

[moo]

This combined with my struggles managing my residue has led me to design a piece of equipment to complement my straw rake which is being built currently by a local engineer

Please tell us more?????

 

[No Worries]

Rob

Do you think that the claydon leading tine has been creating a nice home for the slugs in your heavy ground. It has been suggested to me that could why I have had such bad slug pressure. I'm hoping the move to no till will help. Have you considered the next step?

 

[Louis Mc]

From my brief and limited experience full no till would seem a much better way to go than strip till. Particularly for slugs as you will simply never get the consolidation after a Claydon that you will after a low disturbance disc drill.

Cover crops and late harvest you need to think out side the box and maybe look at broadcasting them into standing crops. This is what we will look further at going forward in our late, high rainfall, heavyish part of the world.

I have a lot more questions than answers at the minute but one thing I know is that if you believe at all in the principles of soil health surely a return to ploughing will be a huge step backwards??

 

[Rainmaker]

Rob, do you feel the straw rake is even worth it when your late combing in your location?
Dose the soil being heavy even make a light tilth to knock the slugs around enough?

 

[Tractor Boy]

I've had a Claydon drill for 8 years. The slugs are purely down to OSR. I gave up OSR and now have very few slugs! I don't know what the alternative crops to use are but I'm hoping cover crops may add the variety without going back to OSR.

 

[Will7]

I have found the rake doesn't do enough on heavy land hence the new bit of kit. A carrier type machine does too much leading to either a dried out seedbed which achieves nothing or a layer of cat sh!t when it turns wet.

You will never get suitable consolidation on heavy ground with a claydon simply because it leaves it too rough. I have a good friend who rakes after the drill every time and then rolls to improve the quality of seedbed. It works for him well.

Growing a spring cereal as your second white strawed crop will give time for the straw to decompose before drilling, and look at the place of osr in the rotation. I have dropped it and hope my slug pressure will ease as a consequence.

 

[Will7]

Please tell us more?????

When I have had it working I will do a post about it. It could be a disaster and an expensive waste of money!!

 

[Rob Holmes]

Rob

Do you think that the claydon leading tine has been creating a nice home for the slugs in your heavy ground. It has been suggested to me that could why I have had such bad slug pressure. I'm hoping the move to no till will help. Have you considered the next step?

I don't think it helps but the double Harrow bar on the hybrid does a good job of filling in the slots. It's the layer of trash after OSR and beans that needs mixing in to destroy the slug habitat

From my brief and limited experience full no till would seem a much better way to go than strip till. Particularly for slugs as you will simply never get the consolidation after a Claydon that you will after a low disturbance disc drill.

Cover crops and late harvest you need to think out side the box and maybe look at broadcasting them into standing crops. This is what we will look further at going forward in our late, high rainfall, heavyish part of the world.

I have a lot more questions than answers at the minute but one thing I know is that if you believe at all in the principles of soil health surely a return to ploughing will be a huge step backwards??

It feels like a major leap of faith to go further down the direct drilling route when strip til isn't working for us, I almost feel brainwashed into thinking that strip/direct drilling is better, but is it really? The plough has been around centuries and hasn't destroyed soil life, it's still the number 1 method round here and soils are in good health.
My thinking is that the plough works in wet or dry, and when we did plough the crops looked well and only needed one or maybe 2 passes with slug pellets... Some fields are on double figures with the passes with Pelletier this year! Totally unsustainable!
I also feel the soils have become slumped since we've strip tilled, the plough does lift and get air into the soil
I'd sooner spend another £20/acre on ploughing and get a good crop rather than spending 3 times that amount on pellets

Rob, do you feel the straw rake is even worth it when your late combing in your location?
Dose the soil being heavy even make a light tilth to knock the slugs around enough?

Starting to think that, that never seems to do the job it's meant to, it blocks even where straw has been baled
We are looking at a shallow cultivator, I do like the look of the Cousins Surface Cultivator, but do we spend £20k or so on something that might work, or spend it on something we know will work
The agronomist wants to change the rotation to WW/WW/WB/WB/WOSR, to reduce the frequency of slug nurturing habitats, and earlier harvesting crops, whilst this rotation would probably work, I feel we're altering the system to suit the concept rather than a concept that fits our farm

 

[Rainmaker]

Thank you for your reply. You mentioned some pasture at the top of the page, could a few short term grass paddocks be slipped into the rotation in future?
Pasture will beat any leafy CC as it grows for such a long time etc etc and the hooves hammer the slugs.
Were we have left grass seed paddocks down a 2nd year and sold the pasture for wooly aphid grazing we've found no slug bait needed for the next wheat while other parts of the farm that haven't been in grass for a number of years will have 3-4 feeds of slug bait before spring and sniff of urea to half pie fix up patches exp with DD or light min-till.

 

[JD6920s]

WW/WW/WB/WB/WOSR, to reduce the frequency of slug nurturing habitats.[/QUOTE]

I've thought about barley, but, it would need to be spring, as winter barley following wheat will suffer from wheat volunteers terribly, especially as you say you can be late cutting the wheat there will be no time for a chit!

As said, it is the Osr that creates the worst of the slug problems.
We have the batter boards and green tines, and if set correctly you can have a lot of pressure on the boards without blocking therefore almost creating a mound on top of the seed row, I don't have the green Harrow too hard as this can level it off again, then we roll twice, so firming the mound tightly around the seed but not if its too wet obviously, then a half rate of Derrex pellets immediately after the rolls, then as required if slugs are doing damage, some has had only one dose, some two doses at the same half rate.
It's imperative to get seed to soil contact, and pellets on ASAP as I find that's the best time to target them whilst their food source is low!

 

[Shropshire Farmer]

I've had a Claydon drill for 8 years. The slugs are purely down to OSR. I gave up OSR and now have very few slugs! I don't know what the alternative crops to use are but I'm hoping cover crops may add the variety without going back to OSR.

Hi Rob, I was going to suggest that rape is your main issue. Current price makes it marginal with the inputs. Why not replace it with linseed or lupins.

 

[franklin]

As said, it is the Osr that creates the worst of the slug problems.

I would have said that too, but have lots of slugs on land this year which has never had OSR. Putting it down to the enormous quantity of damp chopped straw.

As someone who has always chopped straw, I am coming round to thinking it really ought be removed and put back as muck or compost.