Chafer Mirage with CAT 3056e engine- intermittent starting issue

[Kingston]

Intermittent starting issue on chafer mirage sprayer with CAT 3056e engine. Couple of previous fault codes that will not go away (ECU update was suggested but not yet got round to it) and new fault code "fuel temp signal loss". The engine stopped dead whilst driving on the road. A booster pack was then used to start it. Drove fine. Booster pack removed and I stopped engine, it would not restart. Left overnight with batteries charging, started fine in the morning. Left running for a while and then I cut the engine and would not restart. Wiring issue somewhere I presume...anyone with any experience of the electrics on these engines? Thanks!

 

[marco]

Check your earth's, put a jump lead from battery negative to chassis just to check battery negative cable

 

[Kingston]

Gave the earth a shine up today to no avail. Shall check negative tomorrow. Volt meter on machine showing 14v when running but down to between 12-13 when switching off. Needs approx 14v to start. Shall try some new batteries too but not convinced!

 

[leone75]

3056e has a Bosch fuel pump which gives some issues
Fuel temperature fault and secondary timing sensor fault and can bus error ,indicate fuel pump issue.
There is a voltage stabilizer beside the ECU can also give these faults it is a cylinder type thing with four wires out the end

 

[jjm]

Similar sort of a problem with mine .... if you don’t leave the ignition on for 30 seconds or so before firing it up it miss fires and bellows white smoke out until you turn it off and do the above. This happens every time you start it regardless of whether it has been running before or not.....

 

[rmh]

Advice needed, we have a chafer sself propelled, cat3056 engine bosch vp30 injector pump with starting issues, pump is reconditioned, no error codes on the engine. Engine turns over no smoke and doesnt fire, when an injector pipe is loosened theres plenty of deisel coming, tighten pipe again and still no smoke which would indicate theres no deisel being injected. When the engine does eventually start, it starts clean. Maybe after 5minutes of turning over.

 

[Kingston]

I ended up fixing my issue by fitting a refurbished fuel pump from Bosch. It turned out that the small ECU in the fuel pump had broken so replacement fuel pump did the job. Has the problem occurred immediately post fitting the replacement fuel pump? If so I wonder whether it could be a timing issue. You can adjust this slightly, I have some instructions sent to me kindly by another TFF member if needed

 

[rmh]

I dont think its a timing issue. When the engine does eventually start its running perfect, if the timing was out a bit you would expect it to run rough, smoke etc

The machine had an injector pump fitted about a year before we got it, the mchine has done little work since.

If you the instructions handy can you pm me them, it'll be knowledge/bedtime reading if nothing else. Im sure its something simple, but what!

 

[masseybreaker]

3056e has a Bosch fuel pump which gives some issues
Fuel temperature fault and secondary timing sensor fault and can bus error ,indicate fuel pump issue.
There is a voltage stabilizer beside the ECU can also give these faults it is a cylinder type thing with four wires out the end

is it the same engine as a perkins fitted to a mf tier 2 6480 leone ?

 

[agcon1]

just had this exact issue with cat engine in a housham sprayer....it will be your injectors that are knackered....do a leak off test , if i remember right its up to 30ml of leak back while you crank engine for 30 seconds....any more and theres to much leaking back for it to build pressure in the common rail hence it wont open the injectors to fire......if your lucky it will be a perkins built engine just badged as cat....if so you can cross refrence parts or new injectors at reasonable money.....if its cat built then get some vaseline ready..... youll need it for the shafting your going to get...£445 each, or £335 cat remanufactured.. thats if they have any, supplies have been hit with covid!

 

[leone75]

is it the same engine as a perkins fitted to a mf tier 2 6480 leone ?

Yes

 

[leone75]

just had this exact issue with cat engine in a housham sprayer....it will be your injectors that are knackered....do a leak off test , if i remember right its up to 30ml of leak back while you crank engine for 30 seconds....any more and theres to much leaking back for it to build pressure in the common rail hence it wont open the injectors to fire......if your lucky it will be a perkins built engine just badged as cat....if so you can cross refrence parts or new injectors at reasonable money.....if its cat built then get some vaseline ready..... youll need it for the shafting your going to get...£445 each, or £335 cat remanufactured.. thats if they have any, supplies have been hit with covid!

This is a teir 3 common rail engine . The one they are talking about is a teir 2 which is different
We have genuine Perkins 2645a747r in stock for your engine if that's the correct one

 

[Flatlander]

Cat engines are notorious for fuel issues I’ve a bunch of cat motors. Every one is a great puller but once the fuel issues start it can be a nightmare to pinpoint the cause. Injector O rings that leak fuel into either coolant or engine oil is very common. Easy fix but clean up is time consuming. Have a Cummin that does similar to the op s. It will crank over for what seems forever then once started runs good.apparently the fuel priming pump wastnt time up to snuff and injector pump electronics wouldn’t left the engine start. How true that was I’m not sure. Dealer tech was barely out of nappies and spent more time texting than actually looking at me machine. Didn’t change the priming pump as it achieved the pressure eventually and they didn’t have one on hand.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Similar sort of a problem with mine .... if you don’t leave the ignition on for 30 seconds or so before firing it up it miss fires and bellows white smoke out until you turn it off and do the above. This happens every time you start it regardless of whether it has been running before or not.....

This sounds to me like the same problem I had with a perking engine, the electric fuel pump in the filter head was under pressure and low flow when pumping, and letting fuel back, this pump goes all the time the ignition is on running or not,, new filter head fixed it, never fails to start now,
Dealer wanted £210 for new one, i sourced one for £50 ish

Does it look like this

 

[Kingston]

@rmh did you ever solve your issue?
Mine has been running well for the past couple of years but now appears to have developed a similar problem to that you described above. Thanks

 

[rmh]

@rmh did you ever solve your issue?
Mine has been running well for the past couple of years but now appears to have developed a similar problem to that you described above. Thanks

Yes we did, the machine was originally a 2 battery setup, previous owner changed it to one big battery. When the machine was cranking over the starter was taking alot of the power and the voltage going to the injector pump was dropping. From memory the voltage at the injector pump must be over 9.2v for it to work. The engine sounded to be cranking fast enough, slackened an injector and there was diesel coming, but because the pump wasn't getting enough voltage to effectively switch on the pressure wasnt great enough to inject the diesel into the cylinder.

We put it back to a 2 battery setup, with 2 high ah batteries, and that was it sorted.

 

[Kingston]

Ah thanks that’s very helpful. I think mine is an electrical issue too. I do have the 2 batteries but one possibly not charging. Thanks for your help

 

[rmh]

Ah thanks that’s very helpful. I think mine is an electrical issue too. I do have the 2 batteries but one possibly not charging. Thanks for your help

I would definitely treat it to new batteries then, they seem quite sensitive. Let me know how you get on

 

[Kingston]

I would definitely treat it to new batteries then, they seem quite sensitive. Let me know how you get on

Well...I solved my issue (or so I thought) by replacing the fuel filter.
I had been trying various things and then removed the fuel filter, turned it over and it fired up first time. Replaced the filter which appeared to solve issue.
Ran fine for a few weeks.
Went to start it this weekend and wouldn't. I've noticed that when I remove the fuel filter there is some suction of air (vacuum).
I've blown back from the primary filter to the tank which appears fine. Removed tank lid to rule out tank breather. Still creating suction when filter removed.
Have ordered a new lift pump so POA is to replace that and blow down all associated pipes.
Also hoping to get someone to come out and plug into VP30 so see if that is the problem again (replaced with refurbished one in 2020 due to faulty ECU).
Anyone have any other ideas?
Plenty of fuel to injectors but not under sufficient pressure (no smoke from exhaust)
Thanks

 

[Kingston]

Hi All,
The VP30 had some error codes showing so I have had that refurbished. Still no joy getting it going.
Does anyone know of a mechanic that's particularly good with these engines?
Thanks