Claydon

[SilliamWhale]

No till isnt a drilling method, it's a farming technique

There in I suspect lies your problem

The only difference to be fair to Niels is that in holland they are probably not going to no till much with all the veg and root crops around so really I guess the strip till is for just cost saving establishment rather a means to an end.

 

[Clive]

The only difference to be fair to Niels is that in holland they are probably not going to no till much with all the veg and root crops around so really I guess the strip till is for just cost saving establishment rather a means to an end.

that's what I was getting at - no till is a farming system not a drilling method and IMO that system is not compatible with root crop production (yet)

 

[Niels]

Method or technique, whatever you want to name it Clive. One might call it an art. I would, if I had 1000mm+ annually on my fields, a terrible start position (unlevel, no OM, wrong Ca/Mg levels and expensive land prices + fixed costs). Doesn't make for an easy entry! Your bank balance and mind must be strong enough to cope with failures in year 1-5. Recently I was speaking to a farmer that has been experimenting with plough-alternatives for 8 years now. His soils have not improved at all. What should you do?

Say you DO venture into the no-till route (a system where only a drill is used and perhaps a straw harrow). Would you go with CTF, covers and a new drill all at once or carry it out in phases?

 

[Niels]

The only difference to be fair to Niels is that in holland they are probably not going to no till much with all the veg and root crops around so really I guess the strip till is for just cost saving establishment rather a means to an end.

Bang on there yes. Even strip tilling is deemed useless in most conditions as the land still needs to be level and will be ploughed every other year anyway.

If someone can come up with a min-till solution for vegetable and root crops my worries are over. Trials are certainly carried out and with some success but it makes no-till cereal growing look a piece of cake.

 

[Clive]

Method or technique, whatever you want to name it Clive. One might call it an art. I would, if I had 1000mm+ annually on my fields, a terrible start position (unlevel, no OM, wrong Ca/Mg levels and expensive land prices + fixed costs). Doesn't make for an easy entry! Your bank balance and mind must be strong enough to cope with failures in year 1-5. Recently I was speaking to a farmer that has been experimenting with plough-alternatives for 8 years now. His soils have not improved at all. What should you do?

Say you DO venture into the no-till route (a system where only a drill is used and perhaps a straw harrow). Would you go with CTF, covers and a new drill all at once or carry it out in phases?

what I was saying is that zero-till is not really about the drill or drilling technique - its rotation, agronomy and nutrition all of which must change to make it work consistently. I'm yet to have failures since we started and its because I did much more than swap machines when we adopted it, that's not to say failures wont happen but i've had failures while ploughing, min tilling and strip tilling so that will be nothing new when it does happen

CTF is a waste of time with zero-till, just not needed with soil structure benefits that can be achieved. fixing tramlines and really heavy harvest operations is as far as I think you need to go

I don't think you can make it work with roots though so in your case a strip till drill will always be the best choice, it will save you a lot of money but i'm not convinced it will really grow you much better crops always

 

[Feldspar]

I have to say, despite what I say about the evidence for long term benefits of strip till, looking at fields of one of our neighbours which have been Claydoned for over 10 years, the crops look seriously well. The wheat looks almost too well. One of our farms has fields which must be nearly at 8-9 years of Claydon drilling and again the plants look very healthy. Interestingly on both of these blocks of land the system was changed a bit, but not too much - still WW / WW / WOSR and no cover crops. I still think that one of the big challenges with this type of system is black-grass due to the amount of soil movement whilst drilling.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Method or technique, whatever you want to name it Clive. One might call it an art. I would, if I had 1000mm+ annually on my fields, a terrible start position (unlevel, no OM, wrong Ca/Mg levels and expensive land prices + fixed costs). Doesn't make for an easy entry! Your bank balance and mind must be strong enough to cope with failures in year 1-5. Recently I was speaking to a farmer that has been experimenting with plough-alternatives for 8 years now. His soils have not improved at all. What should you do?

Say you DO venture into the no-till route (a system where only a drill is used and perhaps a straw harrow). Would you go with CTF, covers and a new drill all at once or carry it out in phases?

But I have seen ploughed fields fail too! Bloke up the road lost a load of ploughed winter barley to rooks! do you blame the rooks or the plough? The rooks of course so don't blame the drill in no till, blame your management and don't look for scapegoats.

Lets face it boys its mainly in the head. It doesn't matter who you are, how much land you have or don't have, how heavy or light your soils are, how big or small your sfp is, how much rain you do or don't get. If you want to make it work and you are determined to make it work, you will.

 

[Niels]

what I was saying is that zero-till is not really about the drill or drilling technique - its rotation, agronomy and nutrition all of which must change to make it work consistently. I'm yet to have failures since we started and its because I did much more than swap machines when we adopted it, that's not to say failures wont happen but i've had failures while ploughing, min tilling and strip tilling so that will be nothing new when it does happen

CTF is a waste of time with zero-till, just not needed with soil structure benefits that can be achieved. fixing tramlines and really heavy harvest operations is as far as I think you need to go

I don't think you can make it work with roots though so in your case a strip till drill will always be the best choice, it will save you a lot of money but i'm not convinced it will really grow you much better crops always

I do find that a small shock that you say CTF is useless Clive! I think most on here would say zero-till, CTF and cover crops go hand in hand? What do you mean with heavy harvest operations?

I won't work with root crops indeed, you will always need some heavy tillage. Strip till is a good alternative but, most importantly, the land needs to be level. With roots this is an issue. It saves you money mainly on establishment and you grow slightly healthier crops.

 

[Niels]

But I have seen ploughed fields fail too! Bloke up the road lost a load of ploughed winter barley to rooks! do you blame the rooks or the plough? The rooks of course so don't blame the drill in no till, blame your management and don't look for scapegoats.

Lets face it boys its mainly in the head. It doesn't matter who you are, how much land you have or don't have, how heavy or light your soils are, how big or small your sfp is, how much rain you do or don't get. If you want to make it work and you are determined to make it work, you will.

Of course ploughed and spaded fields can fail as well of course. Birds are not much of an issue over here, apart from geese which graze a standing crop. Rain is our biggest worry and sadly uncontrollable.

I half-agree with your last comment. If your mindset is not right it will never work. The things you mention; acreage, type of person and soil type do make an impact on your decision. For example, I have several wheat growers with an acreage of about 150 acres. They would love to start strip tilling their wheat but cannot afford a decent drill. Those who are really into it give it a go but the majority cannot see the advantage over all their worries. They would rather spend 500% extra on working their land.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I'm not sure about CTF in no till. You will eventually be rutting your tramlines and will get erosion and run off in these. Spoken to a few people in the US who no till and used to do CTF they found it problematic and I can totally see why. I think its a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in no till - I genuinely don't even see bad compaction behind balers when I no till - certainly nothing a subsoiler would improve anyway.

Keep something growing in the tramline and shift it about 30 inches now and again.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Of course ploughed and spaded fields can fail as well of course. Birds are not much of an issue over here, apart from geese which graze a standing crop. Rain is our biggest worry and sadly uncontrollable.

I half-agree with your last comment. If your mindset is not right it will never work. The things you mention; acreage, type of person and soil type do make an impact on your decision. For example, I have several wheat growers with an acreage of about 150 acres. They would love to start strip tilling their wheat but cannot afford a decent drill. Those who are really into it give it a go but the majority cannot see the advantage over all their worries. They would rather spend 500% extra on working their land.

Can't you sell them one?

 

[Niels]

Strictly speaking I am not responsible for Claydon's sales in Holland but it happens. Of course we try to sell them a machine but it isn't easy! If I tell you farmers here call cereals 'harvestable cover crops' you might understand why! To give a small insight from a personal point of view. My father in law pays about € 1.325 rent annually. That is £1.015/ha or £410/ac. When you harvest a 10t wheat crop worth £1.800 that doesn't leave a lot of margin sadly.

Rent prices when growing seed potatoes or tulip bulbs go up to € 3.250. (around 3.000 pound). More about this in my first blog on here.

 

[Pedders]

[quote="Niels, post: 331476, member: 141", the land needs to be level. With roots this is an issue. It saves you money mainly on establishment and you grow slightly healthier crops.[/quote]

 

[H.Jackson]

[quote="Niels, post: 331476, member: 141", the land needs to be level. With roots this is an issue. It saves you money mainly on establishment and you grow slightly healthier crops.

[/quote]
What is your opinion of your neighbors strip tilled crops?

 

[Clive]

I do find that a small shock that you say CTF is useless Clive! I think most on here would say zero-till, CTF and cover crops go hand in hand? What do you mean with heavy harvest operations?

I won't work with root crops indeed, you will always need some heavy tillage. Strip till is a good alternative but, most importantly, the land needs to be level. With roots this is an issue. It saves you money mainly on establishment and you grow slightly healthier crops.

Have to disagree - CTF has no relevance to zero-till at all and i'm yet to met a proper zero-till farmer who does it or feels its needed, most would agree that cover crops are a big part of zero-till and i don't recall saying otherwise ?

why do you need to control traffic when you have a good undisturbed soil structure and you only need low hp tractors with weight no greater than 7.5t on wide tyres running at 6psi with timeliness that means you don't go on land that is in a condition prone to compaction ? CTF when zero-tilling is the last thing you want to do, I want to drill at an angle to last season crop residue for starters, I also don't want a 10m or 12m drill and the associated HP and weight that would bring putting you back on the cultivation merry go round

i kind of see the point in CTF in a min-till plough or even strip till situation maybe

by haevey harvest operations I mean combine and cart - unavoidable heavy operations where I do control traffic and run a fixed tramlines system as part of that

 

[shakerator]

compaction is so misunderstood IMHO

 

[Feldspar]

Have to disagree - CTF has no relevance to zero-till at all and i'm yet to met a proper zero-till farmer who does it or feels its needed, most would agree that cover crops are a big part of zero-till and i don't recall saying otherwise ?

why do you need to control traffic when you have a good undisturbed soil structure and you only need low hp tractors with weight no greater than 7.5t on wide tyres running at 6psi with timeliness that means you don't go on land that is in a condition prone to compaction ? CTF when zero-tilling is the last thing you want to do, I want to drill at an angle to last season crop residue for starters, I also don't want a 10m or 12m drill and the associated HP and weight that would bring putting you back on the cultivation merry go round

i kind of see the point in CTF in a min-till plough or even strip till situation maybe

by haevey harvest operations I mean combine and cart - unavoidable heavy operations where I do control traffic and run a fixed tramlines system as part of that

To be fair you could pull a 10m no-till drill with the tractor you are currently using on your 4m.

 

[Pedders]

as you know he's just bought a 3m Mzuri .. I have to say they look very good ....mind you he did cheat a bit by pre cultivating as I don't think he trusted the system ! .. but I dont think they're that much better really than my Dale Drilled crops given their respective drilling dates... maybe a bit more forward which could well be down to N mineralisation from the extra cultivation

 

[SilliamWhale]

compaction is so misunderstood IMHO

Spill

 

[shakerator]

well i suppose mechanical compaction can exist in the form of pans but it only becomes apparent in the context of (lack of) moisture and nutrient uptake. you can have a beautiful no till soil with an ideal structure but no nutrition @ the root interface, and you can grow the very highest yielding hydroponic crops in a tiny cube of rockwool!

if tillage is releasing nutrients for better growth then "pan busting" gives the visual impression of creating easy channels for roots. but why then do i need infinitely more manganese on tillage land?

dissonance just down to the scientific process of dividing physics chem and biology really