Cogent

[applejack]

Well I have a copy now of the new Cogent holstein brochure, plenty of bulls to choose from but hang on a minute there are only eight proven , I know they've lost their tie up with World wide sires and I don't mind using one or two genomic choices but I will probably be shouted down here. A bull bred from an uncalved heifer out of a possible one lactation wonder doesn't fill me with the greatest confidence.

And then the price, a semen rep said to me recently they couldn't believe what farmers were happy to pay for unproven genetics.

 

[Serup]

I just hope my supplier have their computer programs up for it, as we have zero proven bulls on the plan. It's been like that for almost 2 years.
If it works, i will have better genetics than all who use proven bulls, if not, i will have a lot of cows suitable for crossing with meat soon

 

[More to life]

Whole stack of Ai company's out there

 

[happycows]

Yes and where are all the high genomic bulls gone from 2 years ago?? I'm happy to look at genomic figures but I want more than that before I'll entertain using them.
Wintersell Milo was my choice. So many pages I just flicked on going huh is this really what uk's dairy farmers really want of today.

 

[Clay52]

I just hope my supplier have their computer programs up for it, as we have zero proven bulls on the plan. It's been like that for almost 2 years.
If it works, i will have better genetics than all who use proven bulls, if not, i will have a lot of cows suitable for crossing with meat soon

Somewhere in the middle is more likely.

 

[Serup]

I use viking genetics.
Right now they have
23 holstein bulls on the plan - zero are proven
19 scandinavian red bulls - zero proven
9 jersey bulls - zero proven
and 10 red holsteins, also zero proven.
So the national company in Denmark don't sell proven bulls to danish farmers any more.
They do keep the old bulls around, as thats what they can sell on the export market they say.
The bulls we use nationally are usually between 10 and 15 month old, then a new and better comes along.

It will be intersting to see if the masterplan holds up. They promise close to 4 index points improvement/year with this plan, which is a lot.

 

[Serup]

Somewhere in the middle is more likely.

You are probably right. They do say we should not fall in love with any bull, and they keep changing them every 2-3 month.
We are to expect a bigger spread, but the highs should be worth it. They also say this will work well with sexed semen and meat so we only continue breeding on the succesfull ones.

 

[coomoo]

Well I have a copy now of the new Cogent holstein brochure, plenty of bulls to choose from but hang on a minute there are only eight proven , I know they've lost their tie up with World wide sires and I don't mind using one or two genomic choices but I will probably be shouted down here. A bull bred from an uncalved heifer out of a possible one lactation wonder doesn't fill me with the greatest confidence.

And then the price, a semen rep said to me recently they couldn't believe what farmers were happy to pay for unproven genetics.

Couldn't agree more always been a huge believer in proven bulls having used tiergan(still available) wyman lots and grafeeti from cogent. At this minute in time nothing from cogent in tank uno ponder McCormick etc

 

[applejack]

I'm not particularly loyal to any Ai company but what @serap is saying I find worrying, like these genetic whizz kids decide our choices.Proven bull please, not a chance mate!

@happycows agee with you 100%.

 

[buffalo_soldier]

100% genomic here last 3 years.

 

[Serup]

As i understand it, these genomic tests, specially for holsteins, as they have the most data in the system, should compare to quite a few milking daughters in terms of reliability of proof.
I'm not worried yet. They started to offer genomic bulls instead of unproven young bulls, and that was no catastrophe.
Also the reliability should just get better with time, as more and more bulls gets proven with genomic results.

 

[More to life]

100% genomic here last 3 years.

I'm a year behind you, it's been common in the USA for 5-6 years and I believe in ever increasing numbers. The tpi list is of no use on uk farms but the science is transferable fingers crossed. The week link in the system at the moment IMO are the early proofs of proven bulls. Early genomic semen in the USA is often only available to elite herds. In the past 100 daughters would give a fair first proof these days I'm not so sure.

 

[The Agrarian]

I happen to be using two genomic bulls over the winter, and one the previous winter. It wasn't deliberate, it's just that they were the closest to what I was looking for out of what was available to me in a given price range.

Iverson
http://www.synest.net/rln/os/Index.aspx?Lg=ANG&nu=3914641227&cp=FR&sexe=M

Helux
http://www.synest.net/rln/os/Index.aspx?Lg=ANG&nu=7120053828&cp=FR&sexe=M

I'm not too hung up on the rights and wrongs of it. It's my guess that genomics will not be any worse on average than using proven bulls. It's all in how the random recombination of genes turns out in each mating.

I'm guilty of using far worse - a sweeper stock bull!


PS
Frankly though, I can't see there being any going back to the old way of proving bulls. Much too costly. They will make the science work one way or another. Not that it's a reason to copy them, but the Danes wouldn't be renowned for their stupidity.

 

[Clay52]

I'm a year behind you, it's been common in the USA for 5-6 years and I believe in ever increasing numbers. The tpi list is of no use on uk farms but the science is transferable fingers crossed. The week link in the system at the moment IMO are the early proofs of proven bulls. Early genomic semen in the USA is often only available to elite herds. In the past 100 daughters would give a fair first proof these days I'm not so sure.

If looking at the US use $NM. Much better than tpi.

Bulls will be lucky to have 1 proof run with 100 daughters these days.

 

[buffalo_soldier]

Couple i've been using this year:

http://www.genusbreeding.co.uk/?bulls=denmire-momentum
http://www.semex.co.uk/bull/0200HO10000&lang=en

Will be calving a few of these this year:
http://www.semex.com/bull/0200HO06267&lang=en&breed=RP-H

 

[Serup]

I'm not particularly loyal to any Ai company but what @serap is saying I find worrying, like these genetic whizz kids decide our choices.Proven bull please, not a chance mate!

@happycows agee with you 100%.

So it's either a bull in the herd or a 10 year old proven bull in the tank - maybe my approach with something in between is not so bad after all.

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

Iam not afraid to use genomic Bulls as long as they are sired by proven Bulls would be weary of a genomic bull sired by a genomic bull though.

I think most company's are the same not much selection in the proven line up but plenty of young bulls to choose from as someone else said looks like there making our decisions for us.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Couldn't agree more always been a huge believer in proven bulls having used tiergan(still available) wyman lots and grafeeti from cogent. At this minute in time nothing from cogent in tank uno ponder McCormick etc

I was also concerned at the lack of proven bulls, we have been nearly all Cogent breeding for the last 15 years but not happy to go 100% genomic. We've also used Tiergan, Twist heavily, Wyman daughters not in milk yet. We did find the ex-WWS reps recommended the WWS bulls through the mating programme more than Cogent bulls so those now gone from the Cogent catalogue

 

[Whitepeak]

Talking to a now ex-Cogent rep before Christmas and he was saying in a few yrs most bull studs won't keep bulls long enough to get to the stage of being proven. They'll be collected as genomic bulls and then they'll get rid of them and move onto the next bulls. Kinda makes sense from a business/financial sense (as well as a genetic progress one), as to get to proven you have to keep a bull that's doing nothing for 3-4yrs, which must cost a bit. You've also no guarantee that bull you've kept will make the grade.

 

[Princess Pooper]

You've also no guarantee that bull you've kept will make the grade.

So all us poor dairy farmers who have bought this genomic semen never get the chance to buy from a proven bull who HAS made the grade! We're quite happy if we find a bull we like to use him over 2-3 seasons and we won't be able to do that if they are all one season wonders, unless we buy a lot up front! We're only the sodding customers.