Dairy calf separation

[Sandpit Farm]

There is something to be said for natural nursing initially (for non Johne's cows). I went to a Jim Reynolds meeting where they discussed the natural process of: calf sucks, calf nests and sleeps while cow 'grazes', cow returns and nurses calf again and the cycle continues with the bond growing stronger each time. It means the cow can lick the calf to stimulate its GI tract and to get it to its feet, to help dry the calf to insulate it against the cold and to provide endorphins to the cow that act as a natural pain relief from calving.

If we can dovetail our practices to mimic what happens in the wild, we aren't pushing against 6 million years of evolution. So I like the idea of removing the cow from the pen at the point the calf has nested and the cow 'grazing' (feeding at the feed face). Once the cow is removed, stick the sleepy calf in a buggy and hey presto, a stress free separation.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

It does look odd that the OP hasn't posted since but it makes bugger all difference if they are activists or whatever. I believe we should all be challenging ourselves on welfare all the time... it is a massive responsibility. Regulation is OK but we can do better than that, surely.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

So she joins the forum at 2 am today, and by 3 am she makes a far bigger post about animal welfare, than the regular posters do, and not at all shy about going into detail,
Yet last seen at 8.30 on here while waiting for the bus to college,

Hmm something smells of fish

 

[Princess Pooper]

Cripes, someone must be made of money! That's some sort of set up required!

I can honestly say only a handful of our cows seem to remember they have a calf within an hour of rejoining their mates in the cubicle shed. They are fine at mothering them until we move (normally within 12 hours, longer with heifers), but once they realise where they are heading they don't look back and very few of them bawl after the calf.

And as for the calves - as long as they are feeding properly then they don't bawl at all, until a short while before the next feed as they start to feel peckish. Calves want a full belly and plenty of sleep and they get cuddles and strokes when they are fed. As far as they are concerned, I am their mother.

 

[Daniel Larn]

There is something to be said for natural nursing initially (for non Johne's cows). I went to a Jim Reynolds meeting where they discussed the natural process of: calf sucks, calf nests and sleeps while cow 'grazes', cow returns and nurses calf again and the cycle continues with the bond growing stronger each time. It means the cow can lick the calf to stimulate its GI tract and to get it to its feet, to help dry the calf to insulate it against the cold and to provide endorphins to the cow that act as a natural pain relief from calving.

If we can dovetail our practices to mimic what happens in the wild, we aren't pushing against 6 million years of evolution. So I like the idea of removing the cow from the pen at the point the calf has nested and the cow 'grazing' (feeding at the feed face). Once the cow is removed, stick the sleepy calf in a buggy and hey presto, a stress free separation.

It does look odd that the OP hasn't posted since but it makes bugger all difference if they are activists or whatever. I believe we should all be challenging ourselves on welfare all the time... it is a massive responsibility. Regulation is OK but we can do better than that, surely.

Both of these comments have it down to a T.

Whether we like it or not, the public (our consumers) don't like it, so surely we should make the effort to accommodate their wants where we can.

If it isn't feasible, or if it does more harm than good, then fine. But, if it CAN be done, surely it SHOULD be done.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Most dairy farmers are doing what @Sandpit Farm suggests, other than with Johnes cows which may be snatch calved, BUT are probably giving the calf that first feed to ensure the calf is getting adequate high quality colostrum as is recommended as best practice. If they suckle you don't know how mush they have had and of what quality. It's more important to me and the welfare of my stock to take notice of what my vet says rather than a consumer who may never have been near a cow.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

Both of these comments have it down to a T.

Whether we like it or not, the public (our consumers) don't like it, so surely we should make the effort to accommodate their wants where we can.

If it isn't feasible, or if it does more harm than good, then fine. But, if it CAN be done, surely it SHOULD be done.

Pandering to a very small minority for no economic return. No thanks. This ain’t a welfare issue. It’s not even an issue.

If the money is there, I’m in. Cows with calves is good fun.

 

[Blueskyfarmer]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses

To make it clear I currently separate cow and calf at birth and 9 times out of 10 I have no issues, as someone pointed out Holsteins are pretty awful mother's but there's that 1 time out of 10 a cow might go looking for it's calf. It only lasts about 24-48 hours but I can't help but wonder if access could be provided using an electric system.

I do believe that separation soon after birth is the best method currently available to the farmer. However could it be that the weaning process for the 1 in 10 cow could be improved? I'm not saying this is a definite solution but maybe at least worth a short trial.

I get it's pretty idealogical and someone described it as anthropomorphism at its finest. But the reason I joined to ask this question is to get some feedback. Has anyone tried something like this before? Would you be open to try it? How do you think it will play out?

I have a few ideas for a make-shift trial (just one or two cows maybe) but before I make this more than an idea I wanted to gauge feelings on here towards it.

I apologise if anyone takes offense to this but please just ask for honest feedback on whether something like this might work

 

[Slowcow]

I'm still curious how your going sort the calves from the cows?

A calf trying to suckle a cow in a robot is going to end up a pretty funny shape! Unless its foolproof separation it will happen when your not there, one lost calf will out weigh any benefit.

 

[Slowcow]

I'm still curious how your going sort the calves from the cows?

A calf trying to suckle a cow in a robot is going to end up a pretty funny shape! Unless its foolproof separation it will happen when your not there, one lost calf will out weigh any benefit.

 

[Shep]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses

To make it clear I currently separate cow and calf at birth and 9 times out of 10 I have no issues, as someone pointed out Holsteins are pretty awful mother's but there's that 1 time out of 10 a cow might go looking for it's calf. It only lasts about 24-48 hours but I can't help but wonder if access could be provided using an electric system.

I do believe that separation soon after birth is the best method currently available to the farmer. However could it be that the weaning process for the 1 in 10 cow could be improved? I'm not saying this is a definite solution but maybe at least worth a short trial.

I get it's pretty idealogical and someone described it as anthropomorphism at its finest. But the reason I joined to ask this question is to get some feedback. Has anyone tried something like this before? Would you be open to try it? How do you think it will play out?

I have a few ideas for a make-shift trial (just one or two cows maybe) but before I make this more than an idea I wanted to gauge feelings on here towards it.

I apologise if anyone takes offense to this but please just ask for honest feedback on whether something like this might work

If it's only 1 in 10 cows for you, then a very simple and cheap solution is to let her rear the calf and maybe a few others as well, then you can listen to her roar when weaning comes again suckler style or leave the calves on indefinitely. Then watch her every 21 days so you can stop her calf from bulling her and so on and so forth.
Just where do you draw the line?

 

[Daniel Larn]

Pandering to a very small minority for no economic return. No thanks. This ain’t a welfare issue. It’s not even an issue.

If the money is there, I’m in. Cows with calves is good fun.View attachment 839757

If there is no disadvantage to you, and no economic impact, why not do it? Placate the albeit misguided consumer, take away the ammunition for the more radical animal rights activists/vegans.

People thought cars were unnecessary once as well you know.

If it does cause a disadvantage, or is too unmanageable, then we should rightly carry on as we are.

IF, and it's a big if, we can do it without any consequence then we should do it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

Another option would be whether high yielding animals can have a calf every 18 months or longer? How does that stack up? It is tackling the calf issue from a different angle..

The argument against would suggest that you need as many '100 day peaks' in a cow's life as possible. However, some of these animals have a flatter lactation curve anyway so why not get the same milk in a longer lactation with less calves and fertility issues (better chance of getting her back in calf with a longer VWP), less dry periods etc, less heifers needed as cows last longer etc etc.

How many farmers dry cows off when they are still doing 20-25 litres per day?.... it'd be good if you didn't have to.

 

[PaulNix]

If there is no disadvantage to you, and no economic impact, why not do it? Placate the albeit misguided consumer, take away the ammunition for the more radical animal rights activists/vegans.

I'd say because there will be a never ending list from the activists of non problems and issues which need placating, most activists do not genuinely care or understand about the animals or climate they protest about, it's mostly class warfare or wanting to feel superior without actually putting in the effort to do anything themselves. We need to put our foot down and tell them no they are being idiotic, by bowing to these people we are making ourselves slaves to them.
The groups we pay to represent us need to educate the consumers to realise they are being misled but we shouldn't change things which aren't wrong just because we let the activists have a free run.

 

[Blue.]

Another option would be whether high yielding animals can have a calf every 18 months or longer? How does that stack up? It is tackling the calf issue from a different angle..

The argument against would suggest that you need as many '100 day peaks' in a cow's life as possible. However, some of these animals have a flatter lactation curve anyway so why not get the same milk in a longer lactation with less calves and fertility issues (better chance of getting her back in calf with a longer VWP), less dry periods etc, less heifers needed as cows last longer etc etc.

How many farmers dry cows off when they are still doing 20-25 litres per day?.... it'd be good if you didn't have to.

Milk till production drops then dry off and induce into milk after 60 days.

It would suit me fine.

 

[Stinker]

Be nice if a cow didn't need to have a calf to keep milking her. Shame more hasn't been done to breed cows that can milk for years between calves

 

[HasthorpeGrange]

I think if a cow learns it’s going to it’s calf when it leaves the parlour some of them won’t let any milk down because they will be saving it for the calf. Then you potentially have the problem having access to admin milk to soon with milk from the cow and the feeder possibly causing scours.

 

[rusty]

Another option would be whether high yielding animals can have a calf every 18 months or longer? How does that stack up? It is tackling the calf issue from a different angle..

The argument against would suggest that you need as many '100 day peaks' in a cow's life as possible. However, some of these animals have a flatter lactation curve anyway so why not get the same milk in a longer lactation with less calves and fertility issues (better chance of getting her back in calf with a longer VWP), less dry periods etc, less heifers needed as cows last longer etc etc.

How many farmers dry cows off when they are still doing 20-25 litres per day?.... it'd be good if you didn't have to.

Th old ADAS did a trial on this about 20 years ago at the old Bridget's experimental Husbandry farm in Hampshire. They had to abandon it part way through as they really struggled to get cows in calf with such a long voluntary waiting period for 18 month calving.

 

[Daniel Larn]

I agree to a point, and I don't for a minute think it is wrong.

However, when you can give ground, it goes a long way. If they decide to 'proove' it could be done, it undermines us.

Better pick your battles and fight when you have to, let's be proactive and show willing to change where we can.

That's my $0.02 worth.

 

[topground]

Quiet wean type nose clips make weaning my suckler calves noise free.